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Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

shkspr.mobi

411–417 of 417 posts

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel that your invention was used to harm users and empower a quasi-global monopoly on search engines for the profit of tech billionnaire psychopaths and secret services? I don't think you had to have bad intentions (just like physicists and the atom bomb), but do you think the web is better for users without search boxes or search engine choices, and with Google forcing centralized AMP proxying down every…

Please, if we were to call out every developer who works or has ever worked in AnyEvilCorp® then almost no one comes out alive, maybe except RMS

Speak for yourself.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actually i had a similar idea for a keyword-based addressing/search on the web. let's call is keyword naming system, KNS. anyone can define any number of keywords for his website (not neccessarily bound to a dns domain) and these keyword–site-address pairs propagate on the net (like routing protocols, or DHT). and to prevent spamming the hell out of this system, each user's local KNS client will prefer those sites fo…

and what happens when you and I both register the same keyword pairs? or some large corp registers every single keyword pair they can imagine? your also now tying search into a social platform by using "friends" or "peers". i want to find something regardless of what anybody else is doing or has done. if i wanted what my friends were doing, i would already know about it from talking with my friends. i'm so sick of ev…

i'm happy you asked.

it's less like "registering" keyword–site pairs, more like broadcasting keywords about your site. normally only the site owner can broadcast keywords about the site (it's cryptographically signed).

if multiple site owners have the "cats" keyword on their sites, then you simply get more hits on searching for "cats".

the "social" aspect is there to help in search result ranking. individually for each clients. it's really a bad naming to call it "social" and call the participans "friends", i've just named them so to make an analogy to the well-known social networks. but you are right, i don't want to mimic today's "push what is trendy" idea.

i wanted to design this system to be as analogous to real life as possible.

this "rank higher what others like/suggest/approve" logic is analogous IMO to this IRL: you are searching for a car repair shop, but there is 50 car repair shop advertisements in the newspapers. you ask some people which one to go to. (this may interpreted as "which one is the best" or "you like the most" - but only that should be taken into account in my ranking algorithm that the entity claiming it's a repair shop is really one, not fake, ie. not something which people generally flag as spam). in this way the ones which are likely really repair shops get more relevancy points, and the spammy ones get less. but you don't neccessarily ask ordinary people about it, you may ask the government what are the accredited ones. in the algorithm, it translates to follow/subscribe to the government ('s KNS handle) and sort the search results according to their ranking (the may give each accredited car shop 1 point, and 0 for the rest).

this idea is based on the observation that IRL without central directory of "things" you often evade spam advertisement by looking around what is its reputation at others. it does not prevent you to discover lower ranked search results, of course.

this ranking algorithm is there exacly to prevent any company registering all keywords and effectively gaining benefit from it. it may increase the load in the keyword propagation network traffic, but that's an other layer to worry about.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#413
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is their mental model wrong? Perhaps the model of having separate url vs search boxes is wrong.

The model is wrong because it doesn’t reflect reality. URLs and web search are fundamentally different types of items. All models are wrong, some are useful. We are debating how useful this model is.

Not really, we're debating whether allowing users to type URLs and search terms into the same box is encouraging "bad behaviour."

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#414
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if that wasn't the worst slippery slope argument I've seen in a while. That's like me saying "dogs and cats are both mammal pets" and you jump in and say "WELL JELLYFISH IS AN ANIMAL WITH DNA TOO SO OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE CAN'T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN JELLYFISH AND DOGS/CATS". Uhhh, no, that's a massive jump to an extreme conclusion. There's a BIG difference between someone typing "facebook" into a URL bar, and them putt…

This isn't a slippery slope: this is an analogy. Your example of settings makes no sense as you have failed to draw a similar analogy and your example of bookmarks betrayal your own understanding of the system you like as bookmarks are in fact accessible via the omnibar :/. All of the things in my example were of a similar form, and frankly it would be convenient if anything you wanted to get rid of all went down the…

Oh it was definitely a slippery slope argument, in the form of an analogy. You analogy went as far as saying trash and mail are the same, you are aware of that? Clearly, that is absurd and is using a case of an extreme. Mixing trash and mail, or trash and recycling, and sorting them later is obviously an absurd process. Mixing bottles and cardboard in one recycling bin is not absurd. But your analogy was clearly attempting to conflate all of the above, and I'd be going easy on you if I didn't bother to point that out.

Clearly the Bookmarks "star icon UI" is physically located in the omnibar, but when I said "settings and bookmarks", that clearly wasn't what I meant- I meant modifying the settings and bookmarks through typing a command in the omnibar the way you'd type a URL or search query. Bookmarks are not in the omnibar the way you can type "INSERT INTO bookmarks SELECT current_website FROM current_window" into the omnibar to add a bookmark. You can't change the settings "UPDATE settings SET setting_value=black WHERE setting_name=theme" by typing into the omnibar.

However, neither of my previous 2 paragraphs really refute any of your points, they're just clarifications. Pointing out that you made a slippery slope fallacy in an analogy doesn't refute your point, and whether Bookmarks are considered "in the omnibar" or not is orthogonal to the discussion. I agree wit the paragraph on "the true original sin", but that's a different note as well.

So, returning to the main issue: I think the cost issue is a valid point, but then everything has a cost. Even putting bottles and cans in the same recycling bin would incur a cost. Then the end question becomes "is it worth incurring this cost?". For a lot of people, they are willing to pay the taxpayer cost to have their recycling be sorted between the bottles and cans and cardboard etc. Do you have a separate recycling bin for glass bottles, aluminum cans, plastic bottles, cardboard, etc? Or just one recycling bin? Similarly, there is a cost to giving google a tiny bit of additional information- but not much. Plus, they already have your entire browsing history stored on their servers already. Try going to some webpages on Chrome, going to a different device, and check the browser history on the 2nd device- it'll be synced with the first device. So on Chrome, there's no additional privacy cost to combining the url and search bar. Even if you use firefox, there's not a lot of information being leaked with the omnibar that accidentally googled something that was supposed to be an intranet site. For the consumer that doesn't know the difference between a URL and a search, they probably aren't running some sites on their local network anyways.

Considering how low the cost is, I'd say a sizable chunk of people who oppose merging the address bar and the search bar do it out of a purely principled stance where they cannot accept any cost greater than 0, not even 0.00001. I'm not sure if this is a logical position to take, although it makes sense as a philosophical perspective, at least. The other chunk of people are just using it as an excuse to back up a philosophy of "people who are lazy do not deserve our sympathy", which makes even less sense logically (again, see: brain surgeons, grandparents) or philosophically.

On that note, I absolutely hate the quote "the only intuitive design is the nipple; after that, everything is learned". It's one of those cynical quips that just makes the person saying it seem smart, but actually leads you away from the truth. People massively overestimate the concept of a tabula rasa, and not all knowledge is learned. One example I can use against (a good percentage) of tech people is exercise at the gym. If you've ever done squats/bench/deadlift, you know the importance of having a good form. If your form is wrong, it will "feel wrong"- this is something that even absolute beginners at a gym notice, even if they don't have a trainer telling them exactly what is the right form. Another one, (a more interesting subject on the state of the human brain), is observing how people react to certain drugs like acid. Amusingly, novices to psychedelics are always convinced that whatever thought they've just come up with is some groundbreaking revelation, when it's usually something that's been thought of many times before.

> such as that I need to walk more every day--I don't prioritize doing it

Isn't this inherently more lazy and/or worse? This would be like someone who knew what a URL is, and then purposefully choosing to search up items in the Firefox URL bar anyways. At least not bothering to learn is excusable- again, I don't really need my brain surgeon to know how a URL works and understand making a DNS query for an infranet site works. But philosophically, this seems like throwing your trash in your mailbox and being okay with it because it would disappear anyways (excuse my slippery slope analogy, heh). And also I can possibly argue that you don't know that much about your health, anyways- for a human body to stay healthy, it needs more than just walking. Putting heavier loads to build muscles (maybe not specifically for hypertrophy, but certainly not just LISS cardio) is important, especially for your back. Also, sustained high intensity cardio is important for your health as well.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can barely use computers because: - computers are uselessly complex even for simple tasks - UI changes are pushed by vendors every other year or so, despite providing zero interesting features for users - there's no IT education, and when there is it's focused on writing a CV on Microsoft Word and sending email, nothing more All three points could be addressed. And having a proper UX that empowers users with eas…

It's not remotely as simple as you make it out to be. People have spent decades trying to make this stuff easier.

I'm not saying it's simple. I'm merely pointing out that industry players have other interests at heart than those of their users. They are worried about their position and income, not about empowering people.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel that your invention was used to harm users and empower a quasi-global monopoly on search engines for the profit of tech billionnaire psychopaths and secret services? I don't think you had to have bad intentions (just like physicists and the atom bomb), but do you think the web is better for users without search boxes or search engine choices, and with Google forcing centralized AMP proxying down every…

I don’t understand what exactly you’re mad at the guy about? He made an ultra-usable textbox… millions of people use it every day instinctively because it’s a great tool. You can’t crucify him because of your own personal qualms and completely ignore the flip side of the coin.

I'm not mad, just looking for retrospective insight. I don't know about you, but i've learnt great lessons by making mistakes, and i've found historical examples like Albert Einstein's reflections to be eye-opening.

Everybody does mistakes, and i'm not here to throw a stone. But i'm looking for lessons to be shared and learnt.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel that your invention was used to harm users and empower a quasi-global monopoly on search engines for the profit of tech billionnaire psychopaths and secret services? I don't think you had to have bad intentions (just like physicists and the atom bomb), but do you think the web is better for users without search boxes or search engine choices, and with Google forcing centralized AMP proxying down every…

Please, if we were to call out every developer who works or has ever worked in AnyEvilCorp® then almost no one comes out alive, maybe except RMS

I've called out people in the past on works they seemed proud of. In this case, parent commenter explicitly acknowledges that their work had unintended consequences that they did not foresee. So i'm asking for critical lessons/insights they may have gained on the way.

Calling out is "hey you're doing such bullshit". "How do you feel that what you did had this consequence?" is opening a debate to share experiences, not "calling out".

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