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Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

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Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#21

Post by randomopining »

yetihehe wrote: post #18
randomopining wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good deconstruction, but do you really think the CCP is against western decadence? If that was so, why did they allow Western media/social media to completely infiltrate for decades? They just want economic control of everything. You really think if the US was this pure christian-type nation, they would be buddy buddy and let our audit-based economic system encroach and then take hold? The autocrats can't exist in a…

> The autocrats can't exist in a world with checks and balances -- namely democracy and audit-based corporations. Only until they actively destroy those checks and balances by "fixing old inefficiencies" by "helping those left behind". I'm seeing it unfold day-by-day in Poland.

Yeah exactly. Or in the name of nationalism. This is what countries like CCP, Russia, Iran, Turkey, of course NK do.

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#23

Post by huetius »

rsj_hn wrote: post #8
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

One thing I find difficult to reconcile is China’s apparent success in adopting capitalist, free market principles set against manifestos like this, which talk about building a great “socialist state”. Is that label meaningless intentionally? Is it a sincerely held (but misguided) belief? Is it simply a preview of how China plans to ultimately take (forceful) public ownership of the fruits of private industry and inn…

I believe what China understands is that it is in the fight of its life against decadence. It correctly sees decadence as the product of liberalism, something that afflicts dying societies as they transition to some new illiberal regime. In that new, illiberal regime, the CCP will (most likely) not be in charge, and Chinese society as a whole may not survive as a united entity. Now liberalism starts by people who no…

People wishing to dismiss this should look up Wang Huning. It is (as far as I can tell as a non-Chinese person relying on translations and secondary sources), a good summary of his thought.

My trouble with this view, and its Western equivalents, is that viewing religion (religio, that which binds) as something “good for the commoners,” while true in its own way, is also a religion’s undoing. When the primary perceived value of a religion becomes its visible benefits, it is not long before it becomes possible to dismiss it as a mere instrument of power, rather than a transcendent reality. As a Christian, I have no problem recognizing that this has happened to Christianity numerous times in its history, and we are suffering a particularly severe bout of it today in the West. Renewal requires reconnection (religio) with the infinite, and cannot be achieved by political will alone.

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#25

Post by _hilro »

m0zg wrote: post #11
jimmygrapes wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Tax the Rich. This essay could have come from any given Twitter "intelligentsia" in America today with only a select few terms changed.

"Tax the rich" in the US is just a slogan. In 20+ years I've been in the US I've yet to see it actually yield anything concrete. Taxes on the middle class have grown substantially in the meanwhile (health insurance is 3x what it was 20 years ago, and it is a tax in all but name, real estate taxes are 4-5x, and you now pay local sales taxes on interstate online purchases, too).

Surely it's more than that. /s

I mean the NYTimes[0] gave a glowing interview to the creator/designer of AOC's 'Tax The Rich' on September 21 but never once mentioned that the designer owes a considerable amount in taxes in multiple states[1] which had been published 3 days prior by another newspaper.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/16/style/aoc-designer-tax-th...

[1] https://nypost.com/2021/09/18/aocs-tax-the-rich-dress-design...

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#26

Post by hnfong »

rsj_hn wrote: post #8
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

One thing I find difficult to reconcile is China’s apparent success in adopting capitalist, free market principles set against manifestos like this, which talk about building a great “socialist state”. Is that label meaningless intentionally? Is it a sincerely held (but misguided) belief? Is it simply a preview of how China plans to ultimately take (forceful) public ownership of the fruits of private industry and inn…

I believe what China understands is that it is in the fight of its life against decadence. It correctly sees decadence as the product of liberalism, something that afflicts dying societies as they transition to some new illiberal regime. In that new, illiberal regime, the CCP will (most likely) not be in charge, and Chinese society as a whole may not survive as a united entity. Now liberalism starts by people who no…

You seem to believe that "Confucianism" is dead in China. It's really not. Officially the state follows some sort of Marxist/Communist-derived ideology, but culturally Confucian elements are very much still alive. You can read all about how the Chinese and CCP tried to discard the old ways in the 20th century, but that doesn't really capture the nuances of what actually happened. Japan and (South) Korea are good examples -- they're technically western-style democracies, and on the surface adopts a rather western lifestyle, but if you actually live there, you'd see that Confucian culture influences all aspects of their lives. The hierarchical social structures, the insistence on moral responsibility to the collective, the rigid social etiquette and rituals. China has a "light" version of this, but it's still there. And the ruling party has a much tighter grip of political ideology. Xi added "confidence in culture" to the "Four matters of confidence" a couple years ago. Check it out. It doesn't only mean rejecting "decadence", but also returning to traditional Chinese culture roots (i.e. Confucianism).

In fact the "socialist" narrative used by CCP isn't exactly the socialism you might understand it to be, but rather it would be more like the collective-norm-abiding ideology that Confucius would have approved of (yes the sage would have disapproved of feminine boy bands too, establishing moral standards for entertainment was a thing he was obsessed with). The CCP stresses that it practices "socialism with Chinese characteristics" for a reason.

Your theory, like a of people in the "West", tend to presume China would inevitably follow the footsteps of USSR because both were "communist" regimes. They are similar in name only. The China today is essentially how a Confucian nation would arrange its own affairs when given access to modern ideas but not necessarily encumbered by Western ideas of democracy.

I'm not saying that China is going to win in its fight against decadence. Most likely the social issues that have plagued Japan will happen in China once the economy starts to slow down. The lying flat phenomenon has a eerie resemblance to the Hikikomori situation in Japan.

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#27

Post by ergot_vacation »

rsj_hn wrote: post #8
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

One thing I find difficult to reconcile is China’s apparent success in adopting capitalist, free market principles set against manifestos like this, which talk about building a great “socialist state”. Is that label meaningless intentionally? Is it a sincerely held (but misguided) belief? Is it simply a preview of how China plans to ultimately take (forceful) public ownership of the fruits of private industry and inn…

I believe what China understands is that it is in the fight of its life against decadence. It correctly sees decadence as the product of liberalism, something that afflicts dying societies as they transition to some new illiberal regime. In that new, illiberal regime, the CCP will (most likely) not be in charge, and Chinese society as a whole may not survive as a united entity. Now liberalism starts by people who no…

This is it exactly, and something I think most people miss. As one of those "just want to be left alone" types, it drives me fucking crazy that the "decadent" leftists in the west JUST CAN'T LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE. I like my little bit of oddity, but it's never enough for them. Most people had come around to being comfortable or agnostic about LGBT stuff, but they had to keep pushing, keep slathering on more and more bullshit and being as miserable as possible about it, and now public opinion is (rightfully) tanking. Marijuana is nearly legal, but the cultural handling of it has gotten so obnoxious opinion may turn on that too. All the cultural touchstones I dreamed of being overturned during the Bush years as a teenager are finally crumbling, but instead of a paradise it's fucking hell because the left are a bunch of children that are NEVER HAPPY NO MATTER WHAT THEY GET.

In short, I wish we could pin society to one, exact moment of "decadence" and not go hurtling over the edge. Freedom to be a little weird, but not freedom to be insane. But I suppose that's an impossible dream. Guess I better get ready for the new dark ages these people will inevitably summon.

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#28

Post by xg15 »

rsj_hn wrote: post #8
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

One thing I find difficult to reconcile is China’s apparent success in adopting capitalist, free market principles set against manifestos like this, which talk about building a great “socialist state”. Is that label meaningless intentionally? Is it a sincerely held (but misguided) belief? Is it simply a preview of how China plans to ultimately take (forceful) public ownership of the fruits of private industry and inn…

I believe what China understands is that it is in the fight of its life against decadence. It correctly sees decadence as the product of liberalism, something that afflicts dying societies as they transition to some new illiberal regime. In that new, illiberal regime, the CCP will (most likely) not be in charge, and Chinese society as a whole may not survive as a united entity. Now liberalism starts by people who no…

Dismissing the entire civil rights movement as "hedonism" and "decadence" is a lot of things but certainly not christian (except of the "prosperity gospel" or "guns&jesus" kinds, I guess)

Western liberal youth seem to have number of quite strong moral viewpoints if you view the struggle for minority rights, better social security, a honest reflection with colonialism and economic shift to stop climate change.

You can agree or disagree with those viewpoints, but it's certainly more than just hedonism.

I do agree with your analysis of the CCP though.

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#29

Post by denton-scratch »

rsj_hn wrote: post #8
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

One thing I find difficult to reconcile is China’s apparent success in adopting capitalist, free market principles set against manifestos like this, which talk about building a great “socialist state”. Is that label meaningless intentionally? Is it a sincerely held (but misguided) belief? Is it simply a preview of how China plans to ultimately take (forceful) public ownership of the fruits of private industry and inn…

I believe what China understands is that it is in the fight of its life against decadence. It correctly sees decadence as the product of liberalism, something that afflicts dying societies as they transition to some new illiberal regime. In that new, illiberal regime, the CCP will (most likely) not be in charge, and Chinese society as a whole may not survive as a united entity. Now liberalism starts by people who no…

> It correctly sees decadence as the product of liberalism

Is that "correctly" yours, or are you paraphrasing some authoritarian tract? You make quite a few very strong assertions, without argument or evidence.

Maybe it depends on what you mean by "liberal"; one of the meanings is "generous". Another meaning is "permissive", and another is "opposed to authoritarianism". And then there's economic liberalism, which is roughly the same as red-blooded capitalism.

It's awkward here in the UK, where there used to be a political party called the Liberal Party, a remnant of the Whigs, whose own remnant became the Liberal Democrats. These so-called "liberals" have often been discounted as "wishy-washy pinkos", because they are centrists, triangulating for votes - neither fish nor fowl.

You say of Marx:

> to him man was a stomach with legs

Really? Look up Marx's ideas about alienation. A reasonable definition is "the separation or estrangement of human beings from some essential aspect of their nature or from society, often resulting in feelings of powerlessness or helplessness." The "stomach with legs" business sounds more like Adam Smith to me. Marx didn't think of people as simply variables in some economic formula.

Re: Translation of Xi Jinping's "To Firmly Drive Common Prosperity" Essay

#30

Post by m0llusk »

denton-scratch wrote: post #24

TL;DR. Is there an executive summary?

Here is an attempt: We have work to do in order to achieve common prosperity.

Hard work should be the means to prosperity and there should be no excessively rich people or people being allowed to give up and "lie flat".

Communist economics will remain the backbone with the state owning all and allowing people and companies to lease, allocate, and trade properties only for constructive operations.

Economic growth should be scientifically optimized for the whole population, not leaving anyone behind while also not promising too much or allowing plentiful welfare to make people lazy.

China must commit to long term growth with a heavily managed economy and a focus on special economic zones and six principles:

1. Development must be smooth and even with companies of all sizes 2. Middle class people are happier and less trouble than extreme rich and poor. Increasing educated professionals will help with this and the government will hire many and pay them well. 3. Everyone should have access to good quality basic services like health care 4. Get rid of extreme wealth with taxation, confiscation, incarceration 5. Increase spiritual well being 6. Improve rural stagnation and poverty

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