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Colin Powell has died

cnn.com

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Re: Colin Powell has died

#121

Post by afavour »

michaelt wrote: post #114
afavour wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no fan of Colin Powell but IMO the responsibility for those deaths does not fall on him specifically. The US was going to war in Iraq with or without the UN’s backing, everything Powell did was window dressing. False, deceitful and criminal window dressing, but still.

I guess the war was nobody's doing, huh? Powell just jumped on the bandwagon when was was already inevitable. Blair thought the US was implacable, and wanted to bring the UN along so the UN didn't look powerless. GWB was a lovable idiot, whose only mistake was having too much faith in his advisers. It's true what they say - success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

That’s a pretty big leap in logic. GWB, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al we’re all very clearly responsible for the mess that unfolded. I was simply pointing out that Powell had a peripheral role in the events. Not absolving him, but I feel like Powell gets an outsize level of attention because his actions were public and broadcast. It gives those scheming behind the scenes (even before 9/11) a free pass.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#122

Post by merpnderp »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #52
AndrewBissell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see rising through the ranks of the U.S. military through the 70s/80s/90s as particularly praiseworthy either. Powell did the job he did at the UN because he was a company man and had been for a long time. And in addition to a few tut-tuts and a black mark on his record, it also kept him in the good graces of the Washington foreign policy blob, with all the sinecures, speaking fees, magazine profiles,…

> I don't really see rising through the ranks of the U.S. military through the 70s/80s/90s as particularly praiseworthy either Did you see any other black men doing the same thing?

You mean covering up war crimes and lying to the UN to start wars, and being rewarded by the establishment for doing it? I should hope not.

You realize when he was tasked with looking into one of the worst US war crimes in recent history he said it couldn't have happened because the Vietnamese and US soldiers are like BFF's. Worst coverup in history, yet his loyalty was rewarded.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#123

Post by gadders »

I read his autobiography, and one of the saddest parts (as a Brit) was that he had the chance to emigrate to the UK and join the British army, but he thought if he did that the highest he would realistically rise would Regimental Sergeant Major (basically not even an officer).

Re: Colin Powell has died

#124

Post by Ekaros »

slightwinder wrote: post #72
iSnow wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's a stretch and I don't want to Godwin the discussion too much, but that is really not an excuse. The Nuremberg trials clearly rejected this "Nuremberg defense", but of course it was the beaten party standing before the court back then. But in principle, since 1945, no one can evade personal responsibility for a clearly unlawful act by pointing to superior orders.

Yet, USA is doing similar for decades and goes through with it because they can. Just look at their bouts with ICC, as also the case of Guantanamo Bay. Whether a Soldier can evade personal responsibility is still just a matter on which side they serve.

I hope we get to day when we can extend responsibility to even the voters. Vote for mass murder, get the ultimate penalty... Would make world much better place.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#125

Post by NoGravitas »

jl6 wrote: post #118

To help keep things grounded, here’s the UN’s definition of war crime: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml Before throwing around the accusation of “war criminal”, take a look and try to determine which crime the accused committed. A politician lying on a grave matter may be reprehensible or even unforgivable, but let’s not debase language with undue exaggeration.

8.2.b.iv.: Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

Re: Colin Powell has died

#126

Post by lowkey_ »

marricks wrote: post #120
lowkey_ wrote: post #115

This is one of many obituary posts on HN I've seen a ton of hate and accusations on, along with questions like "why does everyone venerate the dead regardless of their acts in life?" Some of us have a different threshold than others for at what point a life is valuable, and the loss of that life tragic. While there can be a time and place for discussions of the 2003 UN performance, calling someone a war criminal, rag…

No an obituary and discussions of a person’s passing must take into account their failings, especially their greatest ones. Otherwise we will begin to forget those mistakes and be doomed to repeat. In particular the failings that lead up to the Iraq war are common place in US history so every effort must be made to remember and be wary of such mistakes (or lies rather).

That belongs in the history books, Wikipedia pages, and retrospectives of one's life.

History will not repeat itself because you didn't properly and fully disparage a person beneath the news of their passing in a little-known internet news forum.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#128

Post by geofft »

woodpanel wrote: post #101

[flagged]

Yeah, it's a pretty deadly disease.

Vaccines work by preparing your body to fight a disease more easily if you get it. They don't physically prevent you from getting it in the first place (that's the effect of physical barriers - distance, masks, etc. - as well as a secondary effect of other people being vaccinated and having reduced viral loads and coughing less). Your body still has to fight off the infection with its antibodies, and the infection is still going through your system.

Healthy people in their 20s and 30s with breakthrough infections tend to report that they get a mild fever and maybe need to take a couple days off from work - which is a lot better than going to the hospital and getting on a ventilator because your body has no idea what to do. A fever is part of the body's immune response.

When you're 84 years old and you previously had multiple myeloma, which affects your white blood cells, this process may not work as well and the resulting "mild" fever can seriously weaken you. So can many other things that the much younger can brush off; they usually get lumped under "natural causes."

Re: Colin Powell has died

#129

Post by betterunix2 »

iSnow wrote: post #33
bluedevil2k wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he didn't deliver that speech, they would have found someone else to do it (and he would have been fired). The responsibility lies with Bush and Cheney, not with the messenger.

I know it's a stretch and I don't want to Godwin the discussion too much, but that is really not an excuse. The Nuremberg trials clearly rejected this "Nuremberg defense", but of course it was the beaten party standing before the court back then. But in principle, since 1945, no one can evade personal responsibility for a clearly unlawful act by pointing to superior orders.

"They did it too" was an acceptable defense at Nuremberg; Donitz was not sentenced for the specific crime of unrestricted submarine warfare because the Allies had done the same thing (the US in the Pacific). Iraq also lied to the UN many times.

Really though, this is a stupid comparison. People generally remember the Nuremberg trials in the context of the Holocaust -- genocide, slave labor, and all the horror that accompanied it. Colin Powell did nothing remotely close to any of that, and while there is plenty of criticism to throw at the US for the invasion of Iraq there was no genocide, no ethnic cleansing, no slave labor camps, and a dozen US soldiers were thrown in prison by the US for having tortured and humiliated prisoners under their command.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#130

Post by gadders »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #22

13 Rules of Leadership First printed in the August 13, 1989, issue of Parade magazine,[41] these are Colin Powell's 13 Rules of Leadership.[42][43] It ain't as bad as you think. Get mad, then get over it. Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it. It can be done. Be careful what you choose. You may get it. Don't let adverse facts stand in the way of a good de…

There was also the slide deck that elaborated on these. A lot of good sense in it, regardless of what you think of him: https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=467329 [PDF]
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