Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that the http caching layers are currently needed to achieve decent UX. But it’s also possible that won’t be necessary forever. The network could expand and get to the point where resolution time comes down to accessible levels. Only time will tell I suppose.
On what basis do you think this is likely? What part of IPFS gets faster when more users are online? If the file exists on a system in the network, it should make a connection and start fetching the file within milliseconds ideally. It's not like we are distributing multi gb files where more seeders means more speed, this is all just slowness in setting up a connection. Even torrents take 1-10 seconds to initiate dow…
HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
191–200 of 337 posts
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#192I like IPFS, I really do, but whenever I try to use it, it's either too slow to become usable or sometimes it plain doesn't work. I pinned a whole bunch of files on IPFS a while back to experiment with it and the system seems to work, but every time I try to fetch those resources from a location that hasn't cached the content yet, it takes several seconds to show me the HTML/JSON/PNG files. HTTP may be inefficient fo…
Sounds like it's working fine for you. "Several seconds" of lag is nothing for an "Inter-Planetary File System", in fact it's on par with other decentralised P2P networks.
That's good enough for kicking off batch file transfers (assuming you mean P2P networks like BitTorrent), but there's no evidence that people will tolerate a slow web, and lots of evidence that they won't.
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that the http caching layers are currently needed to achieve decent UX. But it’s also possible that won’t be necessary forever. The network could expand and get to the point where resolution time comes down to accessible levels. Only time will tell I suppose.
When downloading content using a magnet link downloads are usually quite slow started, while torrent files usually start directly. It's not a fair comparison since the torrents are from a private tracker with high quality peers, but it's noticeable that the DHT stuff is slower. Not sure how cjdns solves that. Will the network be faster the more people join it? Is centralized infra inevitable for fast things because o…
Skynet is a decentralized network with lookup times that have a p50 TTFB of under 200ms. It achieves this by looking things up directly on hosts rather than routing through a DHT. There's a bit of overhead to accomplish this (around 200kb of extra bandwidth per lookup), but for a smooth web experience that tradeoff is more than worthwhile.
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
The hash is not a literal hash of the content- I think it's like a key that lets anyone looking for it ensure it's legitimate. Then the IPFS p2p search mechanism is what lets you find it.
In what sense is it not a literal hash? Because it had the prefix at the start to specify what hash to use and the length?
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#195IPFS needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it about being a decentralized caching layer? Is it about permanently storing content? Is it about replacing my web server? Is it about replacing DNS? Is it about censorship resistance? Right now it does none of those things well. The client chews through CPU and memory when seemingly doing nothing. If I try to download content, it is far slower than BitTorrent unless I go…
> There is no system to keep content alive so links will still die. Torrent trackers solved this in a very interesting way. They created an economic system where bandwidth was the currency, incentivizing the permanent seeding of content. It was illegal to take more than you gave. I've even seen an academic paper studying their system! Bandwidth as a currency eventually proved to be a failure. It enabled the rise of s…
I'm not sure why everyone assumes that bittorrent was about currency. It wasn't, and that was its superpower. No matter how much you were able to contribute, you were able to strengthen its system, redundancy and availability.
The only problem bittorrent had in practice was a legal one that finally led to a problem of availability of discovery.
All that filecoin hype will lead to only one thing, and one thing only: the people that are popular will decide what files are worth to the system, and the masses will simply dump everything else and forget about it.
Add an inflation for every modification of any file in the whole system, and you have a perfect way to destroy real incentives.
I don't believe in most web3 projects because they always think it's about trading files with each other. It is not. Discovery and access to data should not be limited by your financial capability to buy things. The internet exploded because people got access to vast amounts of knowledge, for basically free compared to before.
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#196IPFS needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it about being a decentralized caching layer? Is it about permanently storing content? Is it about replacing my web server? Is it about replacing DNS? Is it about censorship resistance? Right now it does none of those things well. The client chews through CPU and memory when seemingly doing nothing. If I try to download content, it is far slower than BitTorrent unless I go…
If you want to use the Filecoin network as a "provider of last resort" for IPFS data, there's https://estuary.tech which will mark your data as verified, sort out the deals with storage providers, and then mirror it to IPFS.
There's also third-party tools like https://fission.codes/ , https://docs.textile.io/powergate/ , https://web3.storage/ and https://www.pinata.cloud/ for making this easier.
(Disclosure: I work at the Filecoin Foundation.)
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#197Like, if I’m talking to someone over some chat setup which doesn’t have a built in “send this file directly to this person” feature, it would be nice to be able to say, give them a multihash of the file and my external ipv6 address (+ port? I’m not quite sure how routing works), and have them request the file from my computer.
Now, you might say “but how does that help with the situation where a bunch of people in a room want the same file from a distant location?”.
And, maybe it doesn’t as much? But I think if e.g. people on a local network had theirs try first if the local network already had it, and then check the given external address, that that could work?
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#198(Sadly I don't keep the links anymore to prove it. It was somewhere in one of their GitHub repos however, inside an issue.)
I'd love to support them but they don't stand behind their "uncensorable" original slogan.
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#199I like IPFS, I really do, but whenever I try to use it, it's either too slow to become usable or sometimes it plain doesn't work. I pinned a whole bunch of files on IPFS a while back to experiment with it and the system seems to work, but every time I try to fetch those resources from a location that hasn't cached the content yet, it takes several seconds to show me the HTML/JSON/PNG files. HTTP may be inefficient fo…
Try browsing the IPFS example "website". I opens for me under a few hundred milliseconds. ipfs cat /ipfs/QmQPeNsJPyVWPFDVHb77w8G42Fvo15z4bG2X8D2GhfbSXc/readme
I've just pinned a 12MiB file filled with random bytes on one of my servers (`dd if=/dev/urandom of=test.dat bs=1M count=12; ipfs add test.dat; ipfs pin `). The server has a 50mbps uplink, so transferring the file to my laptop should take about two seconds.
Dumping this blog's contents over IPFS takes the server about 3 seconds (first time load) so the network seems to be in working order, at least when downloading data. `ipfs swarm peers` lists about 800 known peers. On the server itself, `ipfs cat /ipfs/redacted > /tmp/test.dat` runs in about a second, which is all perfectly acceptable overhead for a transfer that'll take two to three seconds anyway.
On my laptop, I've tried to get the file but I just cancelled it after waiting for 16 minutes. Halfway throughout the wait, I've tried opening the file through the ipfs.io proxy, which finally gave me the file after a few minutes, but no such luck yet if I retry the ipfs command.
I don't know if it's the random file, the size, or something different, but if I'm launching a blog or publishing documents on IPFS, visitors should not be expected to wait five to ten minutes for the data to load. "After the first twenty visitors it'll get faster" is not a solution to this problem, because there won't be twenty visitors to help the network cache my content.
Maybe I'm expecting too much here; maybe the files shouldn't be expected to be available within half an hour, or before Cloudflare caches it. Maybe there's something wrong with my laptop's setup (I haven't done any port forwarding and I'm behind a firewall). Either way, if I follow the manual but can still buy a domain, set up DNS and hosting on my VPS and send a link to a friend faster than I can get the file through P2P, I don't think IPFS will ever get off the ground. Fifteen minutes is an awful lot of time for a data transfer these days!
Edit: actually, now it seems ipfs.io and cloudflare have picked up the file in their caches. Data transfer is up to normal speed now. If you want to try to replicate my experiment, I've just uploaded a new test file to /ipfs/QmbBD872kjfoutAmTKFCxTCApw9LBB9qxxRyXpEGYzsqMH.
Edit 2: I realized that by saying I downloaded the file and that the file is random, I just announced my personal IP address to the world through the IPFS hash, so I removed it. That was pretty dumb of me, and also a pretty clear problem of IPFS in my book.
Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There is no system to keep content alive so links will still die. Torrent trackers solved this in a very interesting way. They created an economic system where bandwidth was the currency, incentivizing the permanent seeding of content. It was illegal to take more than you gave. I've even seen an academic paper studying their system! Bandwidth as a currency eventually proved to be a failure. It enabled the rise of s…
> Bandwidth as a currency eventually proved to be a failure. I'm not sure why everyone assumes that bittorrent was about currency. It wasn't, and that was its superpower. No matter how much you were able to contribute, you were able to strengthen its system, redundancy and availability. The only problem bittorrent had in practice was a legal one that finally led to a problem of availability of discovery. All that fil…
Torrent trackers were and are to this day. The most successful trackers have proven to be those with a ratio economy. The late what.cd, often described as the library of alexandria of music, had the harshest ratio economy of them all.
> All that filecoin bullshit will lead to only one thing, and one thing only: the people that are popular will decide what files are worth to the system, and the masses will simply dump everything else and forget about it.
That's certainly a possibility. I don't know. I welcome discussion about this.
> Discovery and access to data should not be limited by your financial capability to buy things. The internet exploded because people got access to vast amounts of knowledge, for basically free compared to before.
Absolutely agree. Unfortunately, this is not possible with current copyright laws. This sort of utopia is currently only possible in underground networks such as private bittorrent swarms. It's been proven by history that some sort of incentive is necessary to get people to commit their personal resources -- storage and bandwidth -- to those networks. Ratio economies were created to address the leecher problem: users who simply downloaded what they want, without providing neither bandwidth or redundancy in return.