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HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

ipfs.io

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Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#171
post #3

I like IPFS, I really do, but whenever I try to use it, it's either too slow to become usable or sometimes it plain doesn't work. I pinned a whole bunch of files on IPFS a while back to experiment with it and the system seems to work, but every time I try to fetch those resources from a location that hasn't cached the content yet, it takes several seconds to show me the HTML/JSON/PNG files. HTTP may be inefficient fo…

I love IPFS. It's one of my favorite recent technologies, but I think people have unrealistic expectations about such a young idea. Decentralized tech doesn't work well until the network effects build up. IPFS has the interesting quality that the more popular a piece of content is, the easier it is to get ahold of. If millions of people were using IPFS, the most popular content would be being served by many thousands…

> IPFS has the interesting quality that the more popular a piece of content is, the easier it is to get ahold of.

So niche content is difficult to get a hold of?

Sounds like a bad idea.

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#172
post #3

I like IPFS, I really do, but whenever I try to use it, it's either too slow to become usable or sometimes it plain doesn't work. I pinned a whole bunch of files on IPFS a while back to experiment with it and the system seems to work, but every time I try to fetch those resources from a location that hasn't cached the content yet, it takes several seconds to show me the HTML/JSON/PNG files. HTTP may be inefficient fo…

Wonder if it's practical to "buffer" popular content on IPFS by copying it to normal HTTP servers. Requesting an IPFS document would query a few popular repositories, then revert back to normal IPFS if it's not found. These buffer servers would also track what's popular and shuffle around what they store accordingly.

> Wonder if it's practical to "buffer" popular content on IPFS by copying it to normal HTTP servers.

I guess the approach would be to simply run IPFS on those servers, with the popular content in it, as a seed.

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#173
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you refer to something "by name"? Let's say the current version of Wikipedia's article on Lagrange multiplier - the data is changing, so can't use a hash of the content.

The hash is not a literal hash of the content- I think it's like a key that lets anyone looking for it ensure it's legitimate. Then the IPFS p2p search mechanism is what lets you find it.

In what sense is it not a literal hash? Because it had the prefix at the start to specify what hash to use and the length?

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love IPFS. It's one of my favorite recent technologies, but I think people have unrealistic expectations about such a young idea. Decentralized tech doesn't work well until the network effects build up. IPFS has the interesting quality that the more popular a piece of content is, the easier it is to get ahold of. If millions of people were using IPFS, the most popular content would be being served by many thousands…

> IPFS has the interesting quality that the more popular a piece of content is, the easier it is to get ahold of. So niche content is difficult to get a hold of? Sounds like a bad idea.

Yeah sounds like our existing situation where content is largely moderated by centralized governing bodies. Big -1

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#177
In “The Innovator’s Dilemma” Christiansen presents data from the storage market supporting the argument that disruptive innovations happen when inventions outcompete incumbent products on value criteria that appeal to engineers and enthusiasts but that don’t have immediate commercial applications.

I think that’s what happening in the storage market, again, with IPFS.

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#178

IPFS needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it about being a decentralized caching layer? Is it about permanently storing content? Is it about replacing my web server? Is it about replacing DNS? Is it about censorship resistance? Right now it does none of those things well. The client chews through CPU and memory when seemingly doing nothing. If I try to download content, it is far slower than BitTorrent unless I go…

IPFS's design makes it so that it's all of those things, or none of them. Picking one of them doesn't fit the shape of the technology. IPFS is basically the answer to the question "what is the RIGHT way to decentralize the web?". If you think about that question hard enough, then anyone can see that their way of doing it is the "right" way. It's just obvious. The problem is that all of these mutually supporting compo…

I would have preferred IPFS to do the storage and propagation of data really well and not implemented stuff like IPNS in the core.

To me this should be a separate codebase. And I see this in other features they have been including too.

I'm using IPFS quite heavily to store content generated on https://pollinations.ai but there is no way I could run it without a centralized node that I have control over at the moment because otherwise it would just be painfully slow and unusable.

I love the idea of content addressed decentralized data. I have no real use for IPNS at the moment and many of the other features of the core IPFS stack.

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#179
The "permanent web" goal didn't survive that well. I work closely with IPFS since 2018, and it's not part of the narative by now.

The distributed part is still going strong, but in my eyes distributed (or decentralization) should be a tool, not a goal.

The question is which kind of Internet we want to build with these distributed infrastructure? If it's just cloning the current Internet, then I don't see what it brings.

My personal answer is that we should build a democratic Internet. One where people are members of the Internet, instead of mere users, and decisions are made in a democratic process, like in a state. This kind of Internet can only be implemented using the distributed/decentralized tools.

Re: HTTP is obsolete – it's time for the distributed, permanent web (2015)

#180

IPFS needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it about being a decentralized caching layer? Is it about permanently storing content? Is it about replacing my web server? Is it about replacing DNS? Is it about censorship resistance? Right now it does none of those things well. The client chews through CPU and memory when seemingly doing nothing. If I try to download content, it is far slower than BitTorrent unless I go…

> There is no system to keep content alive so links will still die.

Torrent trackers solved this in a very interesting way. They created an economic system where bandwidth was the currency, incentivizing the permanent seeding of content. It was illegal to take more than you gave. I've even seen an academic paper studying their system!

Bandwidth as a currency eventually proved to be a failure. It enabled the rise of seedboxes, dedicated servers featuring terabytes of storage and connections to high capacity network links. Just like the IPFS centralized gateways you mentioned. They would eventually monopolize all seeding, removing any normal person's ability to gain currency. In some trackers, if you wanted to consume content, your only options were renting one of these seedboxes or uploading new content to the tracker. You always stood to gain at least as much bandwidth as the size of the content you uploaded. The seedboxes would monitor recent uploads and instantly download your new content from you so that they could undercut you. I suppose it was a form of market speculation.

They also failed to realize that there is no uploading without downloading. By penalizing leechers economically, they disincentivized downloading. This led to users being choosier: instead of downloading what they like, they'd download more popular stuff that's likely to provide higher bandwidth returns on their investment. Obscure content seeders would not see much business, so to speak, due to the low demand for the data. Users would stock up on popular and freeleech content so they could get any spare change they could. The more users did this, the less each individual user would get. Then seedboxes came and left them with nearly nothing.

This was eventually solved by incentivizing what was truly important: redundancy. Trackers created "bonus points" awarded to seeders of content every hour they spent seeding, regardless of how much data they actually uploaded to other users. These points can be traded for bandwidth. This incentivized users to keep data available at all times, increasing the number of redundant copies in the swarm. People will seed even the most obscure content for years and years. In some trackers, these rewards were inversely proportional to the amount of seeders: you made more when there were fewer seeders. This encouraged people to actively find these poorly seeded torrents and provide redundancy for them.

We can learn from this. People should be compensated somehow for providing data redundancy: keeping data stored on their disks, and allowing the software to copy it over the network to anyone who needs it. The data could even be encrypted, there's no reason people even need to know what it is. Perhaps a cryptocurrency could find decent application here. Isn't there a filecoin? Not sure how it works.

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