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Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

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Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#111

Post by pstuart »

mbrodersen wrote: post #91
UncleOxidant wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think. This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevita…

I am pretty sure I don’t warship anything. Not even logical thinking or reasoning. Nothing is perfect. Everything is flawed or limited in applicability. No human is either 100% good or evil. Everything depends on context. So what is there to worship?

> So what is there to worship?

David Bowie.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#112

Post by stkdump »

User23 wrote: post #77
NalNezumi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that just seems like a theistic wording of "be humble because you are not perfect, and there's always a potential that you're wrong" An atheistic wording could come from a moral perspective or appealing to virtuous characteristic. A more scientific/ modern observation based re-wording of that is just the dunning kruger effect. (specifically the middle plateau of it)

What is virtuous and what is moral for the atheist? Is it more than the bits of the religious morality his ancestors believed that doesn't contradict his present desires? That question seriously troubled me for some time. Ethics cannot be deduced from logic and aesthetics. To give an example, why exactly is rape wrong? Logically, evolutionary science lets us conclude that it increases individual fitness by increasing…

> Ethics cannot be deduced from logic and aesthetics. To give an example, why exactly is rape wrong?

Rape is wrong, because it induces bodily and emotional harm. You can deduce your whole ethics and morals from the 'reduce the suffering you cause' view. You don't need religion for that.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#113

Post by chmod600 »

I'm not sure if the meaning of "stupid" has drifted over time, but it feels like this essay plays too much with language. It sounds like he's trying to redefine stupidity rather than clarify it.

And why? He has some interesting points about unreasonableness as a social (rather than intellectual) phenomenon.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#114

Post by gastroturf »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #80
pugio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is: > "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of w…

> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think. This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevita…

I could not find that particular statement by Hauerwas, but it seems to be a (valid, IMO) narrow interpretation of his perspective in this paper[1]. Do you have an exact citation?

Prescient indeed, and to me, disturbing.

[1]: https://stanleyhauerwas.org/the-importance-of-being-catholic...

edit: typo

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#115

Post by dandotway »

mbrodersen wrote: post #91
UncleOxidant wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think. This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevita…

I am pretty sure I don’t warship anything. Not even logical thinking or reasoning. Nothing is perfect. Everything is flawed or limited in applicability. No human is either 100% good or evil. Everything depends on context. So what is there to worship?

> Nothing is perfect

If logical thinking is, as you say, imperfect, is it possible that your own conclusion that no perfect things exist is itself an imperfect conclusion? If you use this word perfect, you at least have the Idea of Perfect, even if no perfect things exist. This kind of funny talk I'm using about Ideas of perfect things goes back 2400 years to Plato and his Theory of Forms[1]. According to the philosopher-logician A. N. Whitehead:

  The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition
  is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#116

Post by Zanni »

pugio wrote: post #65
BobbyJo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

Check out The Scout Mindset. It's the best book I've found on how to think clearly (on these kinds of potentially tribal thoughts), and how to productively interact with people who may not be trying to improve in this area (the "stupid" people). We're actually making it required reading at my workplace.

Seconding this. The Scout Mindset is the best book I've read this year. Life changing. Note that it's more aimed at helping you recognized (and defeat) your own biases than help you with other people's biases. I think it will help with extending empathy to them, though, recognizing the mechanisms through which they appear "stupid".

I had this in my "eventually" pile (worthwhile but not immediately compelling), until I read this review by Scott Alexander: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-scout-...

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#117

Post by dxdm »

pugio wrote: post #67
AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is: > "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of w…

I don't know how much some god is going to help. Isn't your belief of what your god wants you to do, or at the very least lets you get away with, shaped by your group? If you're already caught in group dynamics, then your god's authority will probably act through the group. People seem to use their gods to reinforce what they already want to think or do.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#118

Post by isityouyesitsme »

DrStormyDaniels wrote: post #60
poulsbohemian wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not completely sure the point you are intending to make, but yes - there is a reason why so many great German thinkers were Lutheran or had Lutheran ties. It is exemplified by Luther's Table Talks at the pfarrhaus. Basically, it was a regular activity to gather at the pastor's house and debate / discuss / philosophize. Thus this became part of the culture.

Interesting, thanks. I want to know more about Lutherism, if you have any suggestions? As for my point, I'm not 100% sure there was one, except that it's nice to observe a theologian having common ground with the antichrist himself.

bookofconcord.org

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#119

Post by mindless_solips »

I hope the asutute reader is recognizing the classical Western European thinker mentality of "in going through this particular contextual situation where a variety of forces have conspired to create a situation. From my limited view and biasing heavily on observations from a limited sample pool, I derive conclusions broadly applicable to all of humanity across all time."

This is not to say Bonhoeffer was a fool nor to completely disregard his words, but to derive essentially that" all humans are stupid in groups " because you're living through the rise of Nazism is one frame, and is not necessarily self-evidently valid. Until culture became the cesspool of the mid-10s, we had a lot of good analytical evidence for Wisdom of the Crowds, I. E. Wikipedia, PageRank, etc.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#120

Post by xyzzy21 »

AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

It depends on where you were raised. Maybe not in Blue Urban cities but it's trivial in the rest of the USA (where FEW Blue Urban denizen has likely ever traveled).
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