Bonhoeffer on Stupidity • Hacker News Board

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#91

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:31 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #80

pugio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is: > "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of w…

> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think. This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevita…

I am pretty sure I don’t warship anything. Not even logical thinking or reasoning. Nothing is perfect. Everything is flawed or limited in applicability. No human is either 100% good or evil. Everything depends on context. So what is there to worship?

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#92

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:33 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #23

teddyh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

The moment you are aware that you are part of a tribe and can see the tribe for what it is, including its flaws and ugliness, that’s the moment you start thinking for yourself.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#93

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

discreteevent wrote: post #82

NalNezumi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The partial solution to this is what _used_ to be called "open-mindedness". But it's not a pattern for "immunity" but in analogue, practices to keep you "fit" and prepared. I think CGP grey summarized the pattern nicely, and I quote: (timestamped)[0] "The trick is to keep your identity separate from your opinions - they are objects in a box you carry with you and should be easily replaceable if it turns out they're n…

I would say that this binding of identity with opinions is the outstanding feature of the "stupidest" and most destructive people I know.

Yep. You nailed it. People will literally kill and torture to preserve their identity.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#94

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

burrows wrote: post #76

Jensson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You view yourself as the other tribe, and therefore criticize yourself as if you were your worst enemy. From that perspective most stupid ideas you have are easy to see through. You know how stupid the other side is, yeah you probably look around that stupid yourself unless you go through this process regularly and fixes the issues you find in yourself. Although I don't think it is possible to do it perfectly, but yo…

> You know how stupid the other side is, yeah you probably look around that stupid yourself Any other techniques for dealing with this? To get a better measurement of my own intelligence I think about my “dumb friend”, and then try to realize that that’s probably actually about how smart I am.

Always attack your own ideas as hard as you can. Ask yourself what evidence you have for what you believe is true. Figure out possible facts that will prove your idea false. Seek out evidence for those contrarian facts. Be ready to drop precious ideas that turn out to be brittle against facts.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#95

Post by Mitzz » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

mbrodersen wrote: post #91

UncleOxidant wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think. This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevita…

I am pretty sure I don’t warship anything. Not even logical thinking or reasoning. Nothing is perfect. Everything is flawed or limited in applicability. No human is either 100% good or evil. Everything depends on context. So what is there to worship?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (as I understand him) would undoubtedly say that Jesus Christ is both perfect God and perfect Man, and therefore Jesus Christ is what there is to worship.

Based upon my understanding of him, his allegiance to Jesus Christ is what motivated his actions that resulted in his death at the hands of the Nazis.

edit: typo

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#96

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #77

NalNezumi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that just seems like a theistic wording of "be humble because you are not perfect, and there's always a potential that you're wrong" An atheistic wording could come from a moral perspective or appealing to virtuous characteristic. A more scientific/ modern observation based re-wording of that is just the dunning kruger effect. (specifically the middle plateau of it)

What is virtuous and what is moral for the atheist? Is it more than the bits of the religious morality his ancestors believed that doesn't contradict his present desires? That question seriously troubled me for some time. Ethics cannot be deduced from logic and aesthetics. To give an example, why exactly is rape wrong? Logically, evolutionary science lets us conclude that it increases individual fitness by increasing…

There is clear evidence that morality originated with the evolution of societal thinking and human collaboration. Morality is evolutionary useful because it improves in-group trust and collaboration. In other words, there is clear evidence that morality existed thousands of years before religion. Experiments also show that even 2 year old humans and a number of animal species have clear moral thinking.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#97

Post by AlbertCory » Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 12:05 AM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #80

pugio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is: > "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of w…

> He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think. This is well said. I believe it was the theologian Stanley Hauerwas who said in the 70s that the decline of religion in America would inevita…

Thanks, never heard of Stanley Hauerwas.

Of course, I wouldn't take David Foster Wallace (or anyone who killed himself, actually) as an authority on anything.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#98

Post by AlbertCory » Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 12:07 AM UTC

bmj wrote: post #79

AlbertCory wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. Of course, he was a minister, so he'd spent his life thinking about that.

And as a theologian whose work included a book on Christian ethics, and The Cost of Discipleship .

It's really too bad he didn't survive the war and help us with the understanding of it all. There's never enough of that.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#99

Post by User23 » Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 12:10 AM UTC

mbrodersen wrote: post #96

User23 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is virtuous and what is moral for the atheist? Is it more than the bits of the religious morality his ancestors believed that doesn't contradict his present desires? That question seriously troubled me for some time. Ethics cannot be deduced from logic and aesthetics. To give an example, why exactly is rape wrong? Logically, evolutionary science lets us conclude that it increases individual fitness by increasing…

There is clear evidence that morality originated with the evolution of societal thinking and human collaboration. Morality is evolutionary useful because it improves in-group trust and collaboration. In other words, there is clear evidence that morality existed thousands of years before religion. Experiments also show that even 2 year old humans and a number of animal species have clear moral thinking.

> clear evidence [x2]

Don’t just tell us there’s evidence, share it please. This is a site for satisfying intellectual curiosity.

> it improves in-group trust and collaboration

Merely improving in-group trust and collaboration doesn’t meet any kind of acceptable moral bar. Viking raiders had high in-group trust and collaborated extremely well, while raping and pillaging to their hearts’ content. Unless you accept raiding as moral, you’ll have to do better.

> Experiments also show that even 2 year old humans and a number of animal species have clear moral thinking.

This is a risible claim to anyone who has any significant experience with two year olds. It also contradicts your first sentence.

Edit: Three replies to a single comment inside half an hour conclusively indicates emotional rather than rational posting, especially since not a single one of my queries was responded to. One would think after all these years I'd be desensitized, but I never fail to be a little bit disappointed when I encounter someone who is incapable of dialectic, and, to make it worse, covers for it with puerile rhetoric. On the plus side, this does neatly illustrate the point of the submission.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#100

Post by mbrodersen » Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 12:17 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #99

mbrodersen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is clear evidence that morality originated with the evolution of societal thinking and human collaboration. Morality is evolutionary useful because it improves in-group trust and collaboration. In other words, there is clear evidence that morality existed thousands of years before religion. Experiments also show that even 2 year old humans and a number of animal species have clear moral thinking.

> clear evidence [x2] Don’t just tell us there’s evidence, share it please. This is a site for satisfying intellectual curiosity. > it improves in-group trust and collaboration Merely improving in-group trust and collaboration doesn’t meet any kind of acceptable moral bar. Viking raiders had high in-group trust and collaborated extremely well, while raping and pillaging to their hearts’ content. Unless you accept rai…

I don’t think you understand what morality is. People can believe they are highly moral while killing “evil” outsiders (by their moral code). Religious organisations that declare themselves to be highly moral and follow the moral codes of a bible have historically had zero problems killing, burning and torturing people with different moral believes. Morality is a set of rules that a group of people (or an individual) choose to follow. There is no “universal” or “given by nature” morality. However morality is extremely useful in helping groups of people corporate and fight external groups. That’s why different moral codes from different culture/religions tends to be similar because they all help groups to collaborate and survive threats from external groups.