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Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

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Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#231

Post by twobitshifter »

onion2k wrote: post #46
jorgesborges wrote: post #22

So basically they’re developing a product marketed to streaming platforms to identify what’s “more attractive” to consumers. The algorithms are still optimized for increasing sales and engagement, not improving recommendations (for the user). That’s exactly why I’m unhappy with Spotify lately. I feel I’m being sold a bunch of corporate portfolios on what’s currently in vogue, and not just artistically but politically…

So basically they’re developing a product marketed to streaming platforms to identify what’s “more attractive” to consumers. The algorithms are still optimized for increasing sales and engagement, not improving recommendations (for the user). It's possible that the recommendations are both good for users and good for corporate interests. They might not work for you, but for millions of Spotify users they seem to work…

That’s just the appeal to the majority fallacy. People may just use Spotify because it’s free with ads and they have the hook of personal libraries to keep you stuck on the service as a paying member.

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#232

Post by Waterluvian »

jorgesborges wrote: post #22

So basically they’re developing a product marketed to streaming platforms to identify what’s “more attractive” to consumers. The algorithms are still optimized for increasing sales and engagement, not improving recommendations (for the user). That’s exactly why I’m unhappy with Spotify lately. I feel I’m being sold a bunch of corporate portfolios on what’s currently in vogue, and not just artistically but politically…

It’s fascinating to hear this feedback on Spotify because I’ve never used it this way. I don’t let it guide anything. I just use it as a music repository and I pick the albums and make my own playlists.

Do others generally find that auto play (or whatever it’s called) works well? Or does it just feel like payola radio?

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#233

Post by somebodythere »

notyourwork wrote: post #2

I work in this industry and actually we’ve found from online experimentation customers generally don’t want to tell you they dislike something. The expectation is customers get what they like (relevant) and sometimes they want to express stronger affinity for specific things. The converse hasn’t shown to be true. Generally customers don’t have a clear picture of how their explicit signals impact recommendations. Thou…

Disliking something is scary; if I press the dislike button am I going to be cut off from that whole artist/genre/etc?

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#234

Post by soylentnewsorg »

notyourwork wrote: post #167
soylentnewsorg wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not suggest anything. I very clearly stated what I stated, in plain English that is very easy to understand. Your qualifications are irrelevant. Your point of view on the issue we are discussing is wrong for long-term product success, and destroys the hard work others have put into the idea, in order to feel personally superior to your users. I don't know how more plainly I can put it for you if you had trouble…

You’re speaking as if you work beside me and have a clue about anything in the music industry. There’s a reason Spotify doesn’t but uses to have dislike buttons more accessible. I’m not sure why you are disagreeing with me but there’s no need to speak down to someone because of different perspective. I have real world data and work in recommenders I’m not sure what your background is.

I am speaking as if I have no idea about your work and what you do. I am speaking as if I am addressing the specific incredibly stupid thing you said, from a user point of view. You know who does not care about your music "industry" or your "work?" The users of spotify. They care about listening to music they want to listen to. My background is I listen to music using things that play it. Spotify is absolute crap because the people that make it do exactly how you said. The fact that you think you know better than the user is why I put that last paragraph in. You still don't get it, and you never will, and that's the whole point. People who think like you shouldn't be allowed to have any input on features or product, because you make inferior products, and destroy good ones. It happens a lot, with a lot of stuff. Because of you.

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#236

Post by somebodythere »

ozzythecat wrote: post #18
notyourwork wrote: post #2

I work in this industry and actually we’ve found from online experimentation customers generally don’t want to tell you they dislike something. The expectation is customers get what they like (relevant) and sometimes they want to express stronger affinity for specific things. The converse hasn’t shown to be true. Generally customers don’t have a clear picture of how their explicit signals impact recommendations. Thou…

> Skipping a song after less then 20 seconds for example can train a model as well as incorporating an explicit dislike button. How do you know I dislike the song? Instead, maybe I just heard it (or a similar song) on your platform or elsewhere outside of your app and don’t want to listen to it again right now? I guess you could try to build a more complex model that determines what songs or music I like at what time…

I know that these implicit signals affect how I use the app. I might force myself to listen to a song I like, but would rather listen to something else at the time because I don't want my choice to skip to impact my recommendations in opaque ways.

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#237

Post by 0898 »

Discover Weekly is remarkably good at suggesting new music. But I’m surprised at how few of my friends use it. It doesn’t seem to be promoted prominently now.

It’s a bit like how Steve Jobs proudly demoed Expose in Mac OS X 10.3, but then subsequent versions of the operating system progressively hid it - to the point almost no Mac user knows it exists.

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#238

Post by tjr225 »

andreilys wrote: post #192
imajoredinecon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree with the premise - you don’t have to sacrifice productivity to put time into finding good music. For one, you don’t have to do your music research during working hours. But even if you do, it doesn’t mean you’re trading off productivity in order to do it.

you don’t have to do your music research during working hours. But even if you do, it doesn’t mean you’re trading off productivity in order to do it. Trying to find music when you could be focusing is by definition, trading off productivity. I’d rather have an algorithm dictate what songs I want to listen to (in order to focus) than spend an hour wading through junk to find something i like before I start coding.

And I would rather not. Obviously plenty of music enthusiasts here are disappointed with the results the algorithms come up with!

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#239

Post by ChildOfChaos »

Waterluvian wrote: post #232
jorgesborges wrote: post #22

So basically they’re developing a product marketed to streaming platforms to identify what’s “more attractive” to consumers. The algorithms are still optimized for increasing sales and engagement, not improving recommendations (for the user). That’s exactly why I’m unhappy with Spotify lately. I feel I’m being sold a bunch of corporate portfolios on what’s currently in vogue, and not just artistically but politically…

It’s fascinating to hear this feedback on Spotify because I’ve never used it this way. I don’t let it guide anything. I just use it as a music repository and I pick the albums and make my own playlists. Do others generally find that auto play (or whatever it’s called) works well? Or does it just feel like payola radio?

Yeah it's odd to me to see comments like this.

Why would you let a streaming service choose what you want to listen too or a premade playlist by someone else? Then you might as well just listen to the radio. All these on any service are always rubbish. I make my own playlists and I only listen to them, sometimes I search others for some inspiration to see what songs I forgot etc, but most of them include a lot of trash so I make my own.

The only 'auto' feature I use, is my release radar playlist which I check every Friday to find new songs from Artists I like and then add those to my playlist titled for the current year.

Re: Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations

#240

Post by Teknoman117 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #232
jorgesborges wrote: post #22

So basically they’re developing a product marketed to streaming platforms to identify what’s “more attractive” to consumers. The algorithms are still optimized for increasing sales and engagement, not improving recommendations (for the user). That’s exactly why I’m unhappy with Spotify lately. I feel I’m being sold a bunch of corporate portfolios on what’s currently in vogue, and not just artistically but politically…

It’s fascinating to hear this feedback on Spotify because I’ve never used it this way. I don’t let it guide anything. I just use it as a music repository and I pick the albums and make my own playlists. Do others generally find that auto play (or whatever it’s called) works well? Or does it just feel like payola radio?

I use it for both.

"Discover Weekly" tends to be one of my primary sources of new content discovery. I tend to listen to a significant amount of Death Metal, Doom Metal, Folk Metal, German metal and rock, random music in languages I don't understand because the sound is cool to me, and various other never-been-pop subgenres. Discover Weekly has been pretty on point for me to find new and interesting stuff in a way that hasn't felt like them pushing a message or some corporate catalog.

I don't tend to listen to the genres that are full of artists who are trying to push politics through their music (at least that I've consciously recognized) (except maybe System of a Down). Not because I'm necessarily against their messages, it just the sets haven't overlapped much for me at this point. It could also be that music isn't much about lyrics for me, it's about if it's something that sounds good to me.

I have a bunch of playlists and saved albums, but I do listen to discover weekly in the first few days of the week. Sometimes it's meh and I just go choose what I want to listen to, sometimes it's really good and it's on loop through the week.

Their "Daily Mix" playlists seem to be 90% stuff I've clicked "like" on in the past, so I listen to those as well.

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