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Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

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Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#21

Post by AlbertCory »

teddyh wrote: post #18
AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Very true. And of course, no member can admit that their tribe is that way, too, without risking expulsion.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#22

Post by baremetal »

api wrote: post #5
preach wrote: post #2

> The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom declares that the internal liberation of human beings to live the responsible life before God is the only genuine way to overcome stupidity. Do you agree?

I have a secular hypothesis about stupidity that echoes this: that it’s root is narcissism. A person becomes stupid when they come to believe that they could not be wrong. This could be why profoundly accomplished people sometimes become stupid. Their accomplishment convinces them that they are intellectually superior, at which point they proceed to stop thinking critically.

your secular hypothesis and theistic views on this are in agreement.

self-worship.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#23

Post by BobbyJo »

teddyh wrote: post #18
AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#24

Post by _hl_ »

ladon86 wrote: post #19
mudita wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term Bonhoeffer used is "Dummheit". As a German "stupidity" seems to be a more accurate translation to me.

It is, but I would say that on an axis of: Stupidity Silliness …Dummheit leans slightly more towards silliness than pure stupidity does in English. I think Dummheit can be both an adjective and a noun, right? The latter, “eine Dummheit”, sounds more like a silly mistake to me (like “I did a stupid” in internet-speak). A word like “nonsense” might be a good parallel? In English that word can cover serious, trivial, an…

I think it's folly to try and grasp the nuances of "Dummheit" as Bonhoeffer used it 80 years ago from our modern usage of the word. It depends on how the word was used at the time. Even today it depends on context, although generally you are right that it leans a little bit towards silly.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#25

Post by breakyerself »

teddyh wrote: post #18
AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

"We note further that people who have isolated themselves from others or who live in solitude manifest this defect less frequently than individuals or groups of people inclined or condemned to sociability"

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#27

Post by achenet »

BobbyJo wrote: post #23
teddyh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

Being a member of multiple tribes and through that seeing that each has its own goals, beliefs, and communication protocols.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#30

Post by NalNezumi »

BobbyJo wrote: post #23
teddyh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

The partial solution to this is what _used_ to be called "open-mindedness". But it's not a pattern for "immunity" but in analogue, practices to keep you "fit" and prepared.

I think CGP grey summarized the pattern nicely, and I quote: (timestamped)[0]

"The trick is to keep your identity separate from your opinions - they are objects in a box you carry with you and should be easily replaceable if it turns out they're no good.

If you think that the opinions in the box are who you are then you'll cling to them despite any evidence to the contrary.

Bottom line: If you want to always be right, you need to always be prepared to change your mind"

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlsU_YT9n_g&t=72s

I would also add my personal take that you should also presuppose that the person you're talking/listening to will have that attitude. Most people don't, but by merely starting from that point, conversation can have a positive turn when you get a glimpse of why they decided to put that opinion in to their mind-box.

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