Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users • Hacker News Board

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#401

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

Gigachad wrote: post #351

rmah wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, chokes are only necessary with carburetors to control the fuel/air mixture. I think today's cars are all fuel injection and thus don't need to have a choke. Cheaper gas powered garden equipment still has chokes, I think.

So now its all computerized. You don't get a knob on the dash to personalize exactly how much fuel to air you want. The OEM sets that and you go on about your day without ever caring.

No, not quite. The choke was basically just a kludge to enrich the fuel-air mixture beyond the limits of what a carburator would otherwise be mechanically able to achieve. If it had had this ability -- something like "below-idle", where idle is the lower limit of where the carburator can keep the engine running -- then there would never have been a choke. Fuel injection can do that because of the different physical / mechanical way it mixes air and fuel. It has nothing to do with the computerization per se.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#402

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #80

Avicebron wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the post was really talking about the limits of human agency. If we could easily and manually move those electrons ourselves, we probably would be vastly more intuitive and able to tailor the best answer for our query. I think having a relatively intelligible URL bar allows people more freedom from whatever the larger agenda those who would have such an advanced search bar that you type in "object" and it aut…

> why encourage people to use less of their capacity to navigate Because automating tedium is the purpose of the machine. Most of what we do is in pursuit of allowing the user to do more with less of their capacity. The URL itself is a naming abstraction to let users identify things. And it's not even a great one; it has some sharp edges from the end-user's point of view (why does the end user care about protocol? Th…

> > why encourage people to use less of their capacity to navigate

> Because automating tedium is the purpose of the machine.

Getting people to think of knowing where they are and what they're doing as "tedium" is exactly what The Man wants. Congratulations on your succesful assimilation.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#403

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:22 AM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #195

TeMPOraL wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be happy to hear them out too. Much less happy with them just slowly, piece by piece, making their vision happen without "public consultation", just by the virtue of being the dominant browser vendor.

I don't think they're trying to "make their vision happen," I think they're trying to solve real issues people have with URLs. Some of their solutions don't work, as stated in the article I linked original, but I don't think they're doing anything nefarious. They're trying to serve their users, the vast majority of whom have no idea what a URL is.

> I don't think they're trying to "make their vision happen," I think they're trying to solve real issues people have with URLs.

I think you're sadly misguided and, frankly, scaringly naïve.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#404

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:26 AM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #198

dylan604 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> please don't nit-pick it to pieces. that's not how this works. if you don't wont opinions, don't post an idea to the internet. you've just replaced a working DNS system with a DNS system based on best guess or worse requiring a small biz to register with multiple DNS like systems. What happens when competitor beats you to those multiple registration points? >But google isn't proposing that... yet :) Why in the worl…

> you've just replaced a working DNS system with a DNS system based on best guess or worse requiring a small biz to register with multiple DNS like systems Yes, I said it's a really dumb idea. Stop wasting your time nit-picking it :) It was an example of how you could create an open, keywords-based system without requiring Google as an intermediary. > Why in the world would you think that google would do anything tha…

> It was an example of how you could create an open, keywords-based system without requiring Google as an intermediary.

Yeah, you replaced Google with another intermediary or a bunch of other intermediaries. That just shows you're refusing to see that the problem is one of why there should be any intermediary at all.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#405

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:28 AM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #274

dylan604 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about telling someone over the phone how to enter example.com/specificpage.ext?key1=val1&key2=val2&key3=ABCDEFG0123456789, I'd agree that is painful and hopefully not necessary. Telling someone to enter example.com into the URL bar, click on the specificpage link, then select the correct information for the printer you have is much easier

That is what I was talking about; pretty good example, except the missing protocol and "://". I'm remembering the difficulty of explaining what is a forward slash and what is a backward slash. After all, they both lean forward - one leads with its feet, the other with its head. It doesn't help if your contact is using a different keyboard from you. You have to keep asking them to read it back to you. I still have to…

> After all, they both lean forward - one leads with its feet, the other with its head.

Leading with one's feet is commonly known as leaning backward.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#406

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

CmdrKrool wrote: post #217

It's desperately out of fashion now, but remember having one's toolbar in the mode of "icons and text"? Giving you both the buttons, and a little label under each like "New", "Open", "Save", etc. Why not just have that in this case, ie. a little "URL" label under the address bar and a "Search" label under the other one. Even if a phrase like "URL" is jargon to a newbie, once they've seen it up there for long enough i…

> Why not just have that in this case, ie. a little "URL" label under the address bar and a "Search" label under the other one. Even if a phrase like "URL" is jargon to a newbie...

So in stead of putting a little "URL" label under the address bar, let's put a little "Address" label under the URL bar.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#407

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

causi wrote: post #39

Semaphor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it do better than Firefox Mobile? It has all settings, URL bar, and tabs at the bottom as well.

Probably doesn't have Firefox's infuriating tab manager that throws an idiotic "well golly you closed a tab!" popup over the next tab you intend to open.

That was annoying as fuck, but it seems to finally have gone away from the latest Android version. Now it pushes the tab list up and appears below it.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#408

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:39 AM UTC

dhosek wrote: post #63

reayn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think the reason was to further reduce the need to move your thumb from the bottom of the screen. The current iteration of safari is the only mobile browser I have ever used where I feel comfortable browsing and switching tabs with only one finger. It's surprisingly well implemented, though some actions (such as accessing history or site settings) take a couple extra taps.

The big challenge I have with this is that while the Safari bar is at the bottom, search within sites (say, Wikipedia) is still at the top. This ends up making it harder for me to redevelop muscle memory for searches/urls at the bottom

I think the purpose is (at least in part) precisely to "split up your muscle memory", so you don't use the same pattern for different kinds of searches. With browser search at the bottom of the UI, it's better differentiated from the Web site's search input at the top of the page.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#409

Post by benhurmarcel » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 11:37 AM UTC

nend wrote: post #61

rosseloh wrote: post #35

On phone support calls I usually can't even get people who know what a URL, URL bar, or even a search bar, is in the first place. "The box at the top where you type in websites you want to go to." "What are you talking about? I'm computer illiterate, I can't learn any of this fancy tech stuff. I just click my facebook icon and it comes up!" These people get all sorts of confused when something happens in their browse…

Family members for me, but they don't understand the difference between the windows search box in the task bar (next to the "start" button), and google. The difference between Chrome and google.com is lost on them as well. It's a good exercise in patience for me while we go through the steps of describing the differences between searching for things on your computer vs searching for things on the internet, what googl…

At some point those people would be happier with an iPad or Chromebook really, where they wouldn’t need to think about what’s local or not.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#410

Post by scubbo » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #242

scubbo wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the issues people have with Facebook (again, ignoring the privacy issues) This is _massively_ shifting the goalposts. From a personal user perspective, the privacy issues are pretty much the entirety of the problem with Facebook. But you're also missing the fact that Facebook _itself_ is A Bad Thing for the world, even if it is locally useful as a product. The parent commenter is presumably saying that it w…

The privacy issues don't actually bother me much because they're just being used to serve ads that I'm going to block anyways. I'm also sort of jaded when it comes to online privacy and operate under the assumption that every website and every device I use is trying to collect as much data about me as they can, and that the battle for privacy has been lost. I'll just run uBlock Origin to block the ads and most of the…

You and JoshTriplett are arguing different (and non-contradictory) points. You are saying that "the experience of using Facebook is pleasant and worthwhile for me, after taking some steps to alter my experience of it". They are saying "Facebook is a net-bad for society and we would all be better off if it didn't exist". These can both be simultaneously true. Overall-bad things can be pleasant for some users some of the time.

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> The privacy issues don't actually bother me much[...]I'll just run uBlock Origin[...]

That's nice (and I, too, have my own ways for mitigating some of the worst bits of Facebook), but the very fact that you are having to take steps to "protect yourself" from Facebook demonstrates that it is a flawed platform. The vast majority of users are either going to be unaware of those issues, or unable to mitigate them. This is (and I want to emphasise this, because it runs contrary to a common attitude on HN) *not their fault*. It is not reasonable to expect the average computer user to know how to install extensions, nor which ones are important and trustworthy. It would be a wonderful world if they did, but . The fact that we technically-minded folks _can_ mitigate the effects of Facebook's undesirable behaviour for ourselves, does not excuse that behaviour.

(I also think it's a little unimaginative to think that Facebook's tracking is _only_ used to serve ads, and that you will always be able to mitigate all impacts of that tracking - but that's veering into speculation)

> It doesn't matter to me if they're on the same platform as me if I don't see it.

It should do. The harm of extremizing communication is not (only) to the people that see the communication - it is in the outcome of that positive feedback experience. The end result of "communication that you don't see" is "real-world actions that you do see". Would you similarly say "It doesn't matter to me if the KKK are gathering to plan lynchings, so long as they hold their meetings behind closed doors and hand out their flyers on streets I don't frequent"?

Facebook is the largest and most accessible social platform in the world. There _is_ a difference between "Hate groups can collaborate and gather members on Facebook" and "etc. etc. on Parler/Gab", because the former allows them _much_ greater access to fence-sitters, the undecided, the less-politically-aware, and so on. Everyone and their aunt is on Facebook, but (mostly) only those who already hold a particular ideology find themselves on the alternative sites. If hate-groups can only recruit from among those who already agree with their credo, they're going to find it harder to grow - which is a good thing.