Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#101

Post by klyrs » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #93

objclxt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if union is generally flatten the salaries to make me receive less for others more Who says that’s what will happen? Tom Cruise is a member of SAG, do you think he gets paid SAG union rates? Union busters in tech have done a fantastic job of convincing engineers that all unions are blue-collar. Which is funny, because you only have to look to Hollywood to see unions like SAG, the DGA, and the WGA which exist to pro…

It’s the work rules that make a lot of American unions distasteful to workers. A lot of people just don’t want to work in a place where people routinely say stuff like, “that’s not my job, union rules.” The Wizard of Speed and Time is a great film about how difficult it is to be an independent creator in Hollywood due to the costs of getting anything started. The unions make it very hard to bootstrap anything without…

Funny thing about unions. If you form your own union, you get to write the rules. The agreement with the employer is a matter of negotiation, but the operation of the union is entirely the prerogative of the union as long as it's legal.

Don't want to operate a holywood-style guild? Then don't.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#102

Post by mostertoaster » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

thomasahle wrote: post #24

prepend wrote: post #14

I guess I’m just old school but I come from a time when I’d be fired for any negative public or even internal comments. And I’m ok with that. I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. Or I’d start a company and do it my way. I just don’t see leadership being convinced by me complaining on Twitter or starting an internal complaint slack c…

> I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. What if you found every other company were the same way? > Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. There are much fewer leadership positions than people in those companies. It can't be the general recommendation that if you want to make your workplace better you have to compete for one of a handful of positions. That's like telling s…

That’s true. I still think it is better if we just accept that “they’re the boss”. I don’t want their job, I don’t want a vote on the board, that’s more responsibility then I can handle. They’re the boss and they decide. If they’re unethical, or treat people like shit, I’ll quit. I haven’t yet had a manager, CEO, or board has forced me to quit.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#103

Post by PrincessJess » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

angry_octet wrote: post #80

da_big_ghey wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not criticism that is any problem. Its going to press to try to force some change when you are not getting entirely your way. This is a bad thing. Correct answer if this person was seriously in the interest of Apple would be write letters to shareholders/board if management has ignore the concern.

This is, again, the view that the institution is always right, an outmoded and discredited viewpoint.

No it's not lmao. It's that the institution is the one who fills out your fucking paychecks. If I pay you to clean the kitchen, but you want to clean the bathroom, and I tell you to clean the kitchen and not clean the bathroom or you're fired, and you decide to clean the bathroom, what exactly do you think should happen?

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#104

Post by speedgoose » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:04 AM UTC

0xy wrote: post #100

acomjean wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were some comments about a similar situation a while back. It seems Apple gives you an iPhone. It seems like a perk but it’s hard to keep your “personal” Apple accounts separate from you “work” ones. There was a Twitter tread about how some woman’s photos are now owned by Apple because her phone was involved in some legal action. It’s hard but keep this stuff separate.

Sorry, but taking nude photos on a company phone is asking for trouble. Who would be stupid enough to do something like that? Moreover, who would be stupid enough to trust their work phone for anything personal? I don't even log into my bank accounts on work equipment. I assume all my work equipment is totally compromised with spyware.

In my country your workplace is not allowed to go through your personal files stored in your work devices. A folder named "personal" is a good enough legal protection to store all the nudes you want as long as it doesn't take all the space on the device.

People won trials against companies in the past.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#105

Post by krrrh » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #101

krrrh wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the work rules that make a lot of American unions distasteful to workers. A lot of people just don’t want to work in a place where people routinely say stuff like, “that’s not my job, union rules.” The Wizard of Speed and Time is a great film about how difficult it is to be an independent creator in Hollywood due to the costs of getting anything started. The unions make it very hard to bootstrap anything without…

Funny thing about unions. If you form your own union, you get to write the rules. The agreement with the employer is a matter of negotiation, but the operation of the union is entirely the prerogative of the union as long as it's legal. Don't want to operate a holywood-style guild? Then don't.

In reality most unions dominate their industry to the point of monopoly.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#106

Post by discordance » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #92

prepend wrote: post #14

I guess I’m just old school but I come from a time when I’d be fired for any negative public or even internal comments. And I’m ok with that. I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. Or I’d start a company and do it my way. I just don’t see leadership being convinced by me complaining on Twitter or starting an internal complaint slack c…

I wish I could go back in time and tell a younger version of myself the steps needed to work at a FAANG. I unfortunately never had the right guidance to get there and hopefully my kids one day will. I can’t complain as things worked out —- but still. I see these employee issues pop up from time to time and I guess I just don’t understand it. I’m not trying to be cruel to the people speaking out. Just I truly don’t un…

> Ungodly money. Ungodly benefits. Working interesting problems everyday. Changing the world. Impacting millions of lives. The best of some of the best teams.

The pay is good, but the rest of it is not as good as you make it out to be. There are exceptions, but for the most part projects, teams and impact are usually pretty low.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#107

Post by rjzzleep » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #93

objclxt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if union is generally flatten the salaries to make me receive less for others more Who says that’s what will happen? Tom Cruise is a member of SAG, do you think he gets paid SAG union rates? Union busters in tech have done a fantastic job of convincing engineers that all unions are blue-collar. Which is funny, because you only have to look to Hollywood to see unions like SAG, the DGA, and the WGA which exist to pro…

It’s the work rules that make a lot of American unions distasteful to workers. A lot of people just don’t want to work in a place where people routinely say stuff like, “that’s not my job, union rules.” The Wizard of Speed and Time is a great film about how difficult it is to be an independent creator in Hollywood due to the costs of getting anything started. The unions make it very hard to bootstrap anything without…

There are two sides to that. I was representing a German union institution inside our org for one simple reason. The employer had gone out of his way to ignore what peoples responsibilities were and showered them with work that wasn't there's and then tried to punish them for pushing back. Usually the reason people respond with this is not my responsibility is because they have been burned by doing things that wasn't theirs. It's a cultural issue and the solution which you describe is a crappy generic solution to a cultural problem.

That said the very same union would frequently respond with that's not our responsibility when I pointed them to take up actual legal issues that they were responsible for.

A lot of the old union representatives were there for decades with no desire to change anything and enjoying the good relationship they had built with the leadership.

At the end of the day any human organization that grows too big seems to end up in its own lazy comfort zone, whether it's the employer side or the employee representing union side.

The thing about forming your own union is that major unions also have big lobbying institutions saying that their union is the only thing with real power, while the other side has their own lobbying groups pressuring workers into believing that all unions are bad.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#108

Post by MattRix » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:09 AM UTC

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #92

prepend wrote: post #14

I guess I’m just old school but I come from a time when I’d be fired for any negative public or even internal comments. And I’m ok with that. I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. Or I’d start a company and do it my way. I just don’t see leadership being convinced by me complaining on Twitter or starting an internal complaint slack c…

I wish I could go back in time and tell a younger version of myself the steps needed to work at a FAANG. I unfortunately never had the right guidance to get there and hopefully my kids one day will. I can’t complain as things worked out —- but still. I see these employee issues pop up from time to time and I guess I just don’t understand it. I’m not trying to be cruel to the people speaking out. Just I truly don’t un…

It’s all relative. These issues are clearly important to these people.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#109

Post by tjpnz » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:09 AM UTC

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #92

prepend wrote: post #14

I guess I’m just old school but I come from a time when I’d be fired for any negative public or even internal comments. And I’m ok with that. I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. Or I’d start a company and do it my way. I just don’t see leadership being convinced by me complaining on Twitter or starting an internal complaint slack c…

I wish I could go back in time and tell a younger version of myself the steps needed to work at a FAANG. I unfortunately never had the right guidance to get there and hopefully my kids one day will. I can’t complain as things worked out —- but still. I see these employee issues pop up from time to time and I guess I just don’t understand it. I’m not trying to be cruel to the people speaking out. Just I truly don’t un…

>Ungodly money.

Based on my own experience (albeit outside the US) the salaries don't differ much from their non-FAANG counterparts at the top of the market.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#110

Post by WORMS_EAT_WORMS » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

discordance wrote: post #106

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could go back in time and tell a younger version of myself the steps needed to work at a FAANG. I unfortunately never had the right guidance to get there and hopefully my kids one day will. I can’t complain as things worked out —- but still. I see these employee issues pop up from time to time and I guess I just don’t understand it. I’m not trying to be cruel to the people speaking out. Just I truly don’t un…

> Ungodly money. Ungodly benefits. Working interesting problems everyday. Changing the world. Impacting millions of lives. The best of some of the best teams. The pay is good, but the rest of it is not as good as you make it out to be. There are exceptions, but for the most part projects, teams and impact are usually pretty low.

> There are expectations

Sounds miserable!

In all seriousness, it’s awesome and better than most.