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Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

medicine.wustl.edu

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Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#161

Post by phonypc »

walterbell wrote: post #146
space_fountain wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the terms correctly. My understanding is that covid vaccines do still reduce the odds of becoming infected with covid when exposed. We don't have conclusive evidence of this because the sort of people who get vaccinated aren't identical to those who don't but it's decently convincing just based on case counts. I also see a number of studies suggesting vaccination reduces the probabili…

Covid vaccines reduce symptoms. They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. BBC article on immunity, https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098 > There is a whole different suite of antibodies (known as immunoglobulin As) in the nose and lungs, compared with those (immunoglobulin Gs) that we measure in the blood. The former is more important as a barrier to infect…

>They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate.

This is conjecture. It's a hypothetical effect to take into consideration, but it's certainly not borne out in data that the vaccines increase asymptomatic transmission, much less for this reason.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#162

Post by chrismcb »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #62
mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious, but another, extremely effect and quick "treatment" is vaccination. And it works great without the constant need for testing. I have to imagine that anyone willing to undergo treatment at the very start of getting covid, would have also been willing to be vaccinated. The vaccine-hesitant aren't going to go for treatment until the outlook is dire. Additionally, in my experienc…

> The vaccine-hesitant aren't going to go for treatment until the outlook is dire. Many of them seem quite willing to get ivermectin (whether it works or not is another issue). This is a tribal thing: one tribe has determined that the vaccine isn't something their tribe gets, but many of them seem willing to try other treatments that are acceptable to the tribe. (and yes, that's not rational, but humans are often irr…

I distinctly remember some very prominent people saying they wouldn't get the vaccine because it came from Trump. While some Republicans don't want to get it, it is mainly because they are told they have to get it. But there are quite a few Democrats who aren't getting it either.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#163

Post by ralusek »

bsder wrote: post #157
ralusek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no opinion whatsoever regarding whether or not ivermectin's purported mechanism of action against COVID is valid. However, this: > It also just isn’t the sort of thing there would be incentive to lie about is not true. There are two incentives to lie about this, if you are in any way associated with drug or vaccine manufacturers. 1.) Ivermectin is out of patent and dirt cheap; basically not profitable at all 2…

There are more countries in the world than the US and many of them would welcome something like ivermectin if it worked. Sure, ivermectin is dirt cheap, but that doesn't mean somebody couldn't make a buck off of it. Not to mention that any doctor who actually proved something like that to be effective would be quickly hailed as a hero. This is the problem with the "Covid Conspiracists"--magically everything is 100% w…

Many countries are using ivermectin...Mexico, India, it's even being prescribed in the US and UK. What it is missing is quality studies, but there are millions of prescriptions being written based off of clinical discretion.

So yes, there are more countries, and many ARE accepting ivermectin for treating COVID. And again, I don't know or care if it works, I'm vaccinated and wouldn't take it, nor am I a conspiracy theorist, your point is just not correct.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#164

Post by walterbell »

phonypc wrote: post #161
walterbell wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid vaccines reduce symptoms. They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. BBC article on immunity, https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098 > There is a whole different suite of antibodies (known as immunoglobulin As) in the nose and lungs, compared with those (immunoglobulin Gs) that we measure in the blood. The former is more important as a barrier to infect…

> They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. This is conjecture. It's a hypothetical effect to take into consideration, but it's certainly not borne out in data that the vaccines increase asymptomatic transmission, much less for this reason.

Let's look at the CDC website, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac...

> Based on evolving evidence, CDC recommends fully vaccinated people get tested 5-7 days after close contact with a person with suspected or confirmed COVID-19.

For many people, this description could apply to daily activity, e.g. riding on public transit. So the CDC is recommended regular testing of vaccinated people. Since the vaccine can suppress symptoms, testing can be used to detect infection earlier, enabling isolation and/or treatments which only work early in the progression of Covid.

In a July 2021 paper from academics advising UK SAGE, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti...

> Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant selection in vaccinated individuals.

Note the reference to transmission from vaccinated individuals. There was also a study of Vietnamese healthcare workers, showing that 70% of infections were pre-symptomatic, https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733

> 69 healthcare workers were tested positive for SARS-CoV-2. 62 participated in the clinical study. 49 were (pre)symptomatic ... Breakthrough Delta variant infections are associated with high viral loads, prolonged PCR positivity, and low levels of vaccine-induced neutralizing antibodies, explaining the transmission between the vaccinated people. Physical distancing measures remain critical to reduce SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant transmission.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#165

Post by bsder »

ralusek wrote: post #163
bsder wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more countries in the world than the US and many of them would welcome something like ivermectin if it worked. Sure, ivermectin is dirt cheap, but that doesn't mean somebody couldn't make a buck off of it. Not to mention that any doctor who actually proved something like that to be effective would be quickly hailed as a hero. This is the problem with the "Covid Conspiracists"--magically everything is 100% w…

Many countries are using ivermectin...Mexico, India, it's even being prescribed in the US and UK. What it is missing is quality studies, but there are millions of prescriptions being written based off of clinical discretion. So yes, there are more countries, and many ARE accepting ivermectin for treating COVID. And again, I don't know or care if it works, I'm vaccinated and wouldn't take it, nor am I a conspiracy the…

> What it is missing is quality studies

Um, exactly? We have millions of scrips issued and still nobody can produce data.

Now, what we can posit is that there is a worldwide conspiracy to suppress the fact that ivermectin is effective OR we can posit that ivermectin doesn't actually work very well for Covid.

The problem with anecdotal medical treatments is that the human organism is highly variable. Just about any disease "treatment" will work for somebody, somewhere. But that's not enough to proclaim that something works. This is going to be especially true in countries where parasitic infestation (which ivermectin does treat) is more common. If a significant fraction of your population got their parasitic infestation cured, their Covid numbers are going to look quite a bit better, too.

If we're trading on anecdotes, then I'll say that ivermectin doesn't work. We had lots of people taking ivermectin at various level in US Red State land. Their hospitals still got overrun. If anything, ivermectin use is correlated with more hospitalization. This is, in fact, a tautology--but not because ivermectin makes Covid worse (or better) but because people were getting poisoned by ivermectin and most ivermectin users were in red state areas which had lower vaccination rates.

This is why you don't believe claims without data.

> And again, I don't know or care if it works, I'm vaccinated and wouldn't take it, nor am I a conspiracy theorist, your point is just not correct.

The problem is that your "I'm just a skeptic" ignores the fact that nobody can cough up any data. Continuing to promulgate things in the absence of data articulates your position quite clearly.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#166

Post by LurkingPenguin »

space_fountain wrote: post #159
LurkingPenguin wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe I'm misinterpreting the study. With no offense intended, I think you're misunderstanding the whole concept of "viral load". If you are not infected with SARS-CoV-2, you don't have a SARS-CoV-2 "viral load".

I was sort of intentionally abusing the term, though I was trying to be clear that I was trying include explicitly people with a number of viral particles low enough to not be infected. My understanding is that a single covid virus infecting a cell won't result in a positive covid test and probably won't make someone sick especially if they're vaccinated. More broadly the point I'm trying to make is that vaccination…

> phrases like vaccinated people have similar viral loads to unvaccinated individual obscures that point and helps lead people to think vaccines are useless

I neither stated nor implied any such thing and these sorts of PSAs are really not constructive. HN I believe has a generally well-educated and technical audience that is capable of having intelligent, nuanced conversation about scientific research.

In fact, with all due respect, given that you've repeatedly misconstrued and misunderstood the research presented, and by your own admission abused terms, all in an effort to argue something that was totally unrelated to what was being discussed, I'd suggest your efforts are actually counterproductive.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#167

Post by loonster »

Buttons840 wrote: post #160
Symmetry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad we couldn't arrange it so that one vaccine could be the "Trump vaccine" that Republicans could get and another could be the "Fauci vaccine" for Democrats. Then people could express their political affiliations in their medical choices but still get vaccinated. There were a lot of Democratic politicians talking about not trusting rushed vaccines a year ago and if that could have focused on specific vaccin…

Most of the vaccine hesitancy started as made up Facebook posts. Make a video, draw a contrast between the vaccines and next thing you know millions might be repeating whatever you made up. It might actually have some benefit, but furthers harmful patterns. I know people who have expressed interest in new nasal vaccines which may or may not come, I think they know they need a vaccine, but are just looking for some wa…

The vaccine hesitancy started out with the entire media, Biden and Fauci saying an effective vaccine will be years away. Meanwhile Trump is out hawking the warpspeed vaccine like it will save the world. A week after the election and the narrative flips.

I don't buy the first model year of a car, very rarely take an on patent drug, and I won't inject myself with a medical device before the long term studies have been completed.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#168

Post by loonster »

chrismcb wrote: post #162
UncleOxidant wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vaccine-hesitant aren't going to go for treatment until the outlook is dire. Many of them seem quite willing to get ivermectin (whether it works or not is another issue). This is a tribal thing: one tribe has determined that the vaccine isn't something their tribe gets, but many of them seem willing to try other treatments that are acceptable to the tribe. (and yes, that's not rational, but humans are often irr…

I distinctly remember some very prominent people saying they wouldn't get the vaccine because it came from Trump. While some Republicans don't want to get it, it is mainly because they are told they have to get it. But there are quite a few Democrats who aren't getting it either.

The elderly typically are more conservative than the young. The elderly are also taking the vaccine at a higher rate than the young. Just based on demographics, I would assume a significant number of Republicans have taken it.

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#169

Post by tragictrash »

loonster wrote: post #167
Buttons840 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the vaccine hesitancy started as made up Facebook posts. Make a video, draw a contrast between the vaccines and next thing you know millions might be repeating whatever you made up. It might actually have some benefit, but furthers harmful patterns. I know people who have expressed interest in new nasal vaccines which may or may not come, I think they know they need a vaccine, but are just looking for some wa…

The vaccine hesitancy started out with the entire media, Biden and Fauci saying an effective vaccine will be years away. Meanwhile Trump is out hawking the warpspeed vaccine like it will save the world. A week after the election and the narrative flips. I don't buy the first model year of a car, very rarely take an on patent drug, and I won't inject myself with a medical device before the long term studies have been…

What are these long term studies you speak of?

Re: Antiviral compound blocks SARS-CoV-2 from entering cells

#170

Post by tragictrash »

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #134
mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious, but another, extremely effect and quick "treatment" is vaccination. And it works great without the constant need for testing. I have to imagine that anyone willing to undergo treatment at the very start of getting covid, would have also been willing to be vaccinated. The vaccine-hesitant aren't going to go for treatment until the outlook is dire. Additionally, in my experienc…

Not anymore. Because it turns out mRNA vaccination efficacy drops off after 6-9 months, which is why they're rolling out booster shots in my country. I fear that soon "fully vaccinated" will mean one has had a series of 4 shots by that point. (And if you don't like that, we're taking away your job).

Well if you can't be trusted to not infect the people around you, yeah get the hell out. Its literally the only pragmatic way to deal with it.
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