Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity • Hacker News Board

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#21

Post by cratermoon » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

saeranv wrote: post #14

cratermoon wrote: post #7

If you want to go fast and call that being productive, go fast and be productive. But don't gate-keep and turn personal preferences into "should" and "ought". There's a lot of world out there and not everyone wants to organize their lives around work.

He literally discusses all your points in the first paragraph: > The top reasons I see people say that productivity doesn't matter (or is actually bad) fall into one of three buckets: 1. Working on the right thing is more important than working quickly 2. Speed at X doesn't matter because you don't spend much time doing X 3. Thinking about productivity is bad and you should "live life" Here's his argument for your la…

Yeah but he doesn't recognize that his entire argument is personal choice elevated to moral imperative.

> an easy way to do that is to be more productive at work and spend less time working

Why is need to be more productive at work framed as a prerequisite to spending less time working? Just spend less time working. His moral stance, which he never reflects on, is that working is good, and relaxing is predicating on completing the work first. None of that is necessarily true, but it does fit well with the Protestant Work Ethic, which is, of course, a moral framework for putting work before leisure.

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#22

Post by friedman23 » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

jdlshore wrote: post #8

The problem I have with discussions about “productivity” (including 10x engineer chest-beating) is that no one ever defines what they mean by the word. Is it lots of lines of code? Is it clean design and architecture that’s easy to maintain and extend? Responding quickly to business needs? Making a lot of money in a short time? Too often, people arbitrarily choose what they’re good at, or what someone else they admir…

I used to be amazed wondering how people claimed to work 12 hours a day until I realized they consider writing emails and talking to people on the phone work (which it is). But of course me being a software engineer I imagined for some reason when they said work they meant something like coding which after 6 hours has me drained.

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#23

Post by cratermoon » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #18

cratermoon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to what end?

To get your time back while still meeting professional obligations, at least that's my "end" in being productive.

> while still meeting professional obligations

The unstated and unexamined assumption here is that professional obligations trump leisure and enjoyment. Do they? If so, why?

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#24

Post by joe_the_user » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

21eleven wrote: post #17

> An idea that's become increasingly popular in my extended social circles at major tech companies is that one should avoid doing work and waste as much time as possible, often called "antiwork", which seems like a natural extension of "tryhard" becoming an insult. The reason given is often something like, work mainly enriches upper management at your employer and/or shareholders, who are generally richer than you. I…

If you really are not comfortable with the consequences your personal labor you should probably leave your job or not take it in the first place.

Oh really? I don't think you're going to get anything like sort of "ethical" behavior until there's something like UBI implemented. Until then, people are going to hold onto high paid jobs they don't like, especially if they can slack off at them.

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#25

Post by gliese1337 » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #22

jdlshore wrote: post #8

The problem I have with discussions about “productivity” (including 10x engineer chest-beating) is that no one ever defines what they mean by the word. Is it lots of lines of code? Is it clean design and architecture that’s easy to maintain and extend? Responding quickly to business needs? Making a lot of money in a short time? Too often, people arbitrarily choose what they’re good at, or what someone else they admir…

I used to be amazed wondering how people claimed to work 12 hours a day until I realized they consider writing emails and talking to people on the phone work (which it is). But of course me being a software engineer I imagined for some reason when they said work they meant something like coding which after 6 hours has me drained.

Somehow, this never really clicked for me before.

Mind blown.

Thanks!

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#26

Post by f00zz » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #23

Jtsummers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get your time back while still meeting professional obligations, at least that's my "end" in being productive.

> while still meeting professional obligations The unstated and unexamined assumption here is that professional obligations trump leisure and enjoyment. Do they? If so, why?

Do you have a trust fund?

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#27

Post by Jtsummers » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #23

Jtsummers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get your time back while still meeting professional obligations, at least that's my "end" in being productive.

> while still meeting professional obligations The unstated and unexamined assumption here is that professional obligations trump leisure and enjoyment. Do they? If so, why?

I mean, you could choose a different employer with lower expectations or reduced obligations if that's an option where you live. But no employer is required to keep you employed if you don't get your work done. It may be harder to fire people in some places and in some industries, but it's rarely impossible. If you want to be able to have leisure and enjoyment, you probably need money, which means being employed, and to remain employed you need to meet your obligations.

So be unproductive and risk getting fired but go home at a reasonable time. Be unproductive and work long hours to meet the obligations and not get your leisure and enjoyment. Or be efficient and go home at a reasonable hour and have your leisure and enjoyment. I choose the third, because it's sensible. Unlike my 90-hour workweek colleagues who stress about everything.

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#28

Post by Afforess » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

21eleven wrote: post #17

> An idea that's become increasingly popular in my extended social circles at major tech companies is that one should avoid doing work and waste as much time as possible, often called "antiwork", which seems like a natural extension of "tryhard" becoming an insult. The reason given is often something like, work mainly enriches upper management at your employer and/or shareholders, who are generally richer than you. I…

> If you really are not comfortable with the consequences your personal labor you should probably leave your job or not take it in the first place. This sounds like a decadent rationalization for highly compensated people that want to feel moral while being lazy.

Three words that trap many: Employer Provided Healthcare.

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#29

Post by Jensson » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #21

saeranv wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He literally discusses all your points in the first paragraph: > The top reasons I see people say that productivity doesn't matter (or is actually bad) fall into one of three buckets: 1. Working on the right thing is more important than working quickly 2. Speed at X doesn't matter because you don't spend much time doing X 3. Thinking about productivity is bad and you should "live life" Here's his argument for your la…

Yeah but he doesn't recognize that his entire argument is personal choice elevated to moral imperative. > an easy way to do that is to be more productive at work and spend less time working Why is need to be more productive at work framed as a prerequisite to spending less time working? Just spend less time working. His moral stance, which he never reflects on, is that working is good, and relaxing is predicating on…

You will get fired if you don't get enough done at work. Higher productivity means you can accomplish enough tasks to not get fired in less amount of time.

Re: Some reasons to work on productivity and velocity

#30

Post by minihat » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

The actionable advice in this post: 1) Track where you spend your time 2) Apply deliberate practice to improve where you are weak/slow

I am typically energy constrained rather than time constrained, as I imagine is the case for many working in engineering/science. Yet, the author's advice remains useful. Deliberate practice should provide gains to both time and energy costs of tasks.

For me most productivity advice, including this post, ultimately reduces to "try to get better at your trade, and track your progress".