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Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

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Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#251
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> suggests that you're going for an "exit" strategy I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? An exit strategy isn't, like, a particular type of business model that some businesses use. It's just a word for the founders' strategy with respect to exiting the business.

So, what I mean by "exit" strategy is that they're more interested in going public or being bought out than in providing long-term good (and sustainability). There's a different set of incentives in wanting to exit (high valuation, market competition, etc.) than there is with being a long-term viable, sustainable business (building a reputation, being effective, etc.). The former are a lot more common in SV (it seems…

An exit strategy just refers to the founders' plan, whatever that may be, for exiting the company. Most people can't meaningfully work on one thing forever, but there's no reason why you can't exit a company and leave it in good hands, with a viable long-term plan. In fact, most founders will be incentivised to do exactly that.

It seems like you're suggesting that the only way to run a company responsibly is to intend to personally be at the helm until you drop dead, like Zuckerberg. That just feels unrealistic, and like a totally bizarre and excessive criticism, when there's lots of other legitimate stuff to criticise about this company.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#252

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

This is totally wrong. The economics of monthly billing are awful, and completely unworkable for a new startup. You have to do annual. Cost of Install: $7.00, for something this specific Trial Start Rate: 20%, if paywalled like this app is Cost Per Trial: $35 Conversion to Trial: 40% Cost Per Subscriber: $87.50 If they charge you $10/month, they can't get into the black on a new customer for 9 months. They have to ea…

> On the other hand, this will open up treatment to people who can't pay the medical cartels.

This is making the big assumption that a generalized set of self-directed exercises with no one-on-one personalized customization or checkins is an adequate substitute for real medical care.

I am skeptical that it is an adequate substitute. And if someone is hungry and you sell them a picture of a cheeseburger, that isn't epic iterative progress, it's just exploitative and immoral. I don't see any strong evidence that their app is actually going to work.

People with ADHD aren't famously great at consistently self-motivating themselves to do daily tasks. What are the odds that this isn't just another $100 charge for them that they can feel guilty about at 2:00 in the morning? If the founders want to argue that this is more (or even just comparably) effective than actual therapy and medication when it can't even be used as a diagnostic tool, then they need much stronger evidence than they're showing.

And I don't think that's a problem that can be solved by iteration. If they weren't marketing their product as a substitute for therapy I wouldn't be as critical (although I would still think their pricing model was thoughtless). To market themselves as if they're doing something extraordinary when, from everything I can tell from their product pages, they aren't -- that's predatory.

Self-directed exercises from a startup are not a substitute for real CBT; if they were then insurance would pay for them.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#253
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what I mean by "exit" strategy is that they're more interested in going public or being bought out than in providing long-term good (and sustainability). There's a different set of incentives in wanting to exit (high valuation, market competition, etc.) than there is with being a long-term viable, sustainable business (building a reputation, being effective, etc.). The former are a lot more common in SV (it seems…

An exit strategy just refers to the founders' plan, whatever that may be, for exiting the company. Most people can't meaningfully work on one thing forever, but there's no reason why you can't exit a company and leave it in good hands, with a viable long-term plan. In fact, most founders will be incentivised to do exactly that. It seems like you're suggesting that the only way to run a company responsibly is to inten…

TeMPOral's explanation (sibling of my comment you're replying to here) is better than mine.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#254
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for highlighting this - we're trying to figure out what the best model is for our community. A lot of other apps follow a similar model, we allow people to cancel anytime and have refunded everyone that has forgotten to cancel. Some people also like having the subscription because it is a pay per use model rather than putting everyone under the same one-off bundle. We're working on extending the free trial / m…

I think the easiest solution is to stop providing access after the free trial until they opt-in to a subscription. That way there’s no surprise charge if they forget.

This seems reasonable.

Go ahead and collect the payment info before giving them access to the free trial, let them use the thing for free for X days, then when the free trial is up, block their access and ask them whether or not they'd like to pay for the subscription. It could literally just be one big button that says "accept." Then ideally, ask them again before each recurring charge.

Some people here are proposing an absurd amount of friction - one highly upvoted post suggested that the app should require users to re-enter their payment info before every charge. What if this app is great? What if I actually want to give them my money? Making me type in my credit card info repeatedly is nightmarishly bad UX.

Reducing friction is a good thing, even here. The important bit is just getting the user's clear consent by making it opt-in instead of opt-out.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#255

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

As someone with ADHD, I can confirm this model is super predatory. I cancel all my credit cards every year just to get rid of all opt-in charges on regular basis

I tried this to get out of my gym membership and they sent the bill to collections. Luckily I called them and they didn't make me pay it. They did ban me from the gym however

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was diagnosed with ADHD last year after suspecting it for some time. I used Notion for this exact reason, but ended up switching to Obsidian with much more success. Notion is a great app and I even had a pro subscription for a while, but the number of widgets and options and different ways of doing things made it too distracting for me.

I'm glad you found something that works for you! I haven't tried Obsidian yet, but I'm tempted to when I get a little time to try it out, because open-source is just inherently better. [edit] just looked it up, I thought Obsidian was open source but apparently not. Disappointing.

I agree, it’s disappointing. Personally, I justify my use case by considering that they have little incentive to “be evil” given their business model, and I have to make some sacrifices to get the outcome I want; not being able to inspect the source is a sacrifice I make for a very effective personal organization tool.

Obviously this is a decision I have made for myself and it’s just as likely to blow up in my face in the future as any other project, but I would encourage anyone struggling with memory or organization as a result of ADHD to investigate Obsidian.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you that absolutely no-one "likes" being charged a full years subscription in advance. We're working on extending the free trial / moving to a freemium model. Please. You aren't spaceX "working on" your next engine, or AMD "working on" the next processor architecture. All you have to do to end the unethical behavior is flip a few bits in a database. Don't pretend it's some kind of grand technical challen…

While criticism can be good when constructive, I think these comments are a bit dramatic and make way too many assumptions. I would expect that it's more financially lucrative to have a happy userbase, which translates to a good reputation and thus larger user-base, rather rip-off a few who will eventually give bad reviews and create a bad reputation. To me the current pricing model sounds more like a bad decision ra…

> To me the current pricing model sounds more like a bad decision rather than anything else.

I'd ordinarily be willing to believe that, but I can't stop thinking: this is a service with a very specific target market - people with a condition whose defining characteristic is being vulnerable to be exploited through the exact payment model that Inflow has chosen. To accept this as a honest mistake is to believe that they never thought about their target audience at all, which is inconsistent with their claims of having people with deep understanding of the condition on board.

> But in any case, if I didn't like it I would just not use it, rather than throwing accusations around on malicious intentions without having any evidence.

Startups are getting way too much mileage from Hanlon's razor.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#258
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Privacy.com ? Even for people with no ADHD the subscription trap is very real but there are technological solutions.

Are there any hidden traps in the free plan? I know they have incentive to onboard as many free users as possible since they get part of the card fee when you use it, but people get greedy even with an opportunity to make essentially free, effortless, and ethical money.

Only ever used the free plan. I don’t think it’s meaningfully different. Only problem is that some apps like ClassPass will decline.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#259
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An exit strategy just refers to the founders' plan, whatever that may be, for exiting the company. Most people can't meaningfully work on one thing forever, but there's no reason why you can't exit a company and leave it in good hands, with a viable long-term plan. In fact, most founders will be incentivised to do exactly that. It seems like you're suggesting that the only way to run a company responsibly is to inten…

TeMPOral's explanation (sibling of my comment you're replying to here) is better than mine.

It isn't, really :). And 'samhw raises some good points. So let me follow up.

> but there's no reason why you can't exit a company and leave it in good hands, with a viable long-term plan. In fact, most founders will be incentivised to do exactly that.

That's not what "exit" means in startup vernacular. An "exit" is the part where you and your investors get rich. This is usually achieved through the company going public, or getting acquired by another one. Both cases are almost inevitably bad for existing users/customers. Going public usually means the company is subject to the whims of stock market players. Acquires usually means the company gets scrapped for parts (usually for people, knowhow, patents, and/or user data). Either way, the founders and investors got their reward - so they don't really have a reason to care about what happens with the business afterwards.

Now the problem is, getting to an exit isn't a sure thing - but it's something that can be optimized for. Optimizing for it eventually puts the company in a situation, where they have to diminish or even offer negative value to users - through e.g. bait&switch payment models, dropping useful features, vendor lock-in, UX dark patterns - in order to improve the main metric that increases the chance of successful exit: growth.

So when you see founders explicitly talking about and planning for an exit, what this means is that they already demonstrate they'll put making the company attractive to would-be acquirers ahead of offering actual value to the users/customers. And to be clear, it's worth reminding: marketing has a better marginal ROI than providing value, so just because customers seem to be flocking to a company, doesn't mean the company is offering a good deal. They may be just good at "growth hacking".

The worst case is obvious fraud (Theranos, uBeam), but the second worst case is what I referred to in another comment as "legal pump&dump" - companies who focus almost entirely on growth hacking while providing minimal value, in hopes they'll get acquired before everyone figures out the whole thing is bullshit.

> the only way to run a company responsibly is to intend to personally be at the helm until you drop dead

Of course not :). Another way would be to not take VC funding, focus on providing a good service for as long as you feel like, and eventually pass the business on, sell it, or shut down.

The way I see it, just taking VC funding - taking the Faustian bargain - makes you an "exit risk". One way to assuage the fears of users would be to make some legally-binding promises about the future of the company, but nobody ever does that. In time, as more non-tech people finally figure out how startups work, maybe that'll change.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#260
post #7

At risk of asking a stupid question, have you had people without ADHD try your app? Does this type of CBT have any potential benefits for non-neurodiverse people?

Not a stupid question at all! ADHD impacts executive functioning which a lot of people struggle with whether they qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD or not. While we have had users who don't have a diagnosis of ADHD use the app, naturally the benefits are felt a lot more by people who know they have ADHD.

This is insanely predatory, between this and that "skip the interview" app I've completely lost all faith in Y Combinator. I don't know how people are allowed to propose such villainous ideas, let alone conceive of one. My only mental recourse is assuming that you're either completely blind to the actual needs of people with ADHD, or you came at this from a money-first perspective.
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