Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#91

Post by sebisaacsinflow » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #80

throwanem wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billing an entire annual subscription up front, as opposed to monthly, seems especially questionable. What if the therapy doesn't work? What if it's so badly implemented that it can't work? You're still out a hundred bucks just the same, and that's just in the first year. edit: There is also a monthly subscription option, in the Apple app store at least. It's $22 a month - so over twice as much as the annual. This do…

Perhaps there is room for the following: (Please dont kill me for the off-the-cuff idea:) A per-login / frequency of use model; You agree to a MAXIMUM of $100/year as WELL AS a max per month that may be charged (== to $100/12 max) -- but the idea is that if you skip a month or some amount of time you are not charged.... The usage is based on certain amount of time-in-app or somesuch.... you get the idea. --- Anyway,…

This is a good idea but we do also have limitations from the App/Play Store - definitely something we'd been keen to explore though. In the meantime, we've refunded everybody who has requested one.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#92

Post by dtomd12 » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

sebisaacsinflow wrote: post #81

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

Thanks for highlighting this - we're trying to figure out what the best model is for our community. A lot of other apps follow a similar model, we allow people to cancel anytime and have refunded everyone that has forgotten to cancel. Some people also like having the subscription because it is a pay per use model rather than putting everyone under the same one-off bundle. We're working on extending the free trial / m…

I think the easiest solution is to stop providing access after the free trial until they opt-in to a subscription. That way there’s no surprise charge if they forget.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#93

Post by yummypaint » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

sebisaacsinflow wrote: post #84

WhiteDawn wrote: post #74

As someone with ADHD, I’ve stayed away from this product because it is a subscription service. I will sign up for subscription services fully well intentioned and then proceed to not use the service and forget to cancel it in time. I know myself well enough now to stay away from any product offering a subscription. There is no real “managing” it, it’s just a fact of life for me and something I live around. An app tar…

Thanks for the feedback. We're working on some potential solutions to this and in the meantime we refund everybody who requests one.

Such as?

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#94

Post by anonymoushn » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

sebisaacsinflow wrote: post #81

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

Thanks for highlighting this - we're trying to figure out what the best model is for our community. A lot of other apps follow a similar model, we allow people to cancel anytime and have refunded everyone that has forgotten to cancel. Some people also like having the subscription because it is a pay per use model rather than putting everyone under the same one-off bundle. We're working on extending the free trial / m…

> we allow people to cancel anytime and have refunded everyone that has forgotten to cancel

Probably not, because your users are people who will forget to cancel and then forget to tell you about that.

> Some people also like having the subscription because it is a pay per use model

What does this mean? It sounds like users are complaining that if they download the app and don't use it it charges them $100.

> Would love any suggestions on how to improve this.

Howabout when the free trial ends, at that time the user has to approve a charge before continuing to use the app.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#95

Post by freemint » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

gtirloni wrote: post #10

"This app isn't available in your country" (Brazil).

Not available in Germany either

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#96

Post by sebisaacsinflow » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

d4mi3n wrote: post #51

colinplamondon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally wrong. The economics of monthly billing are awful, and completely unworkable for a new startup. You have to do annual. Cost of Install: $7.00, for something this specific Trial Start Rate: 20%, if paywalled like this app is Cost Per Trial: $35 Conversion to Trial: 40% Cost Per Subscriber: $87.50 If they charge you $10/month, they can't get into the black on a new customer for 9 months. They have to ea…

The problem isn’t the cost, it’s the way folks with ADHD are being charged. The whole point here is to help folks who are having trouble remembering to do things. Regardless of the economics, the optics here make this seem like exploitation. Making this opt-in avoids a dark pattern. Folks with ADHD are often impulsive and strike while the iron is hot—if this has value people will opt-in.

Appreciate the feedback and we're working on potential solutions to this. We do refund everybody who requests one and send reminder emails and notification within 2 days of the free trial ending.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#97

Post by beaconstudios » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #83

beaconstudios wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think YCombinator isn't willing to exploit people? They're a VC accelerator, of course they are. Just because the profit motive doesn't always lead to immoral behaviour, doesn't mean that profit-motivated people aren't going to pursue immoral behaviour if it's profitable.

It's a little surprising to see YC start to risk the brand this way, though, and as others have noted in this thread, not for the first time recently - Skip the Interview, in particular, being of note in this connection, after having shut down the same day it launched due to a complete, and frankly rather easily predictable, failure of product-market fit. Right now, and in the past, "YC-backed" has consistently been…

The low-hanging fruit have been picked over. The easy wins of SaaS and consumer web tech have been won already, but they still have an obligation to generate the same levels of profit (have you ever seen a company gracefully shrink with its industry, especially a financialised company?), so they will start to both go for niches, and go for exploitation. Growth is always most rapid at the introduction of a new industry, and if you're a hypercapitalist (as VCs tend to be) you're going to be under pressure to see continued profit levels long after the industry can sustain them healthily.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#98

Post by krono » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

deeblering4 wrote: post #73

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

FWIW this is how several diet apps work as well. Short initial free trial, followed by auto-charge lump sum subscription of 6-12mo. Not my favorite model, but also probably not intentionally predatory towards a specific group of people. From a business point of view it makes some sense. It extracts maximum money from customers in a niche that is inherently flakey (dieting, self-help, etc.). People often start off str…

The massive difference that you are overlooking, however, is the fact that ADHD Brains are neurologically and/or biochemically incapable of defense against this.

That inner voice telling you what to do or what not to do? ADHD brains have... well, let's just say "something else".. in its place.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#99

Post by endisneigh » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #77

endisneigh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of what you’re saying makes sense. If the product is amazing people will continue paying and attrition will be low, annual or not. Basically the model here is like a gym, where people buy things that they don’t use as much as the price implies or is simply ineffective. Given that the customers are executive function impaired, seems shady.

> or is simply ineffective And 7 days is really too short to notice a sustained effect.

Indeed, but the same could be said about therapy, or anything really. Therapists don’t charge you a year up front as far as I know.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#100

Post by skeletron » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

sebisaacsinflow wrote: post #81

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

Thanks for highlighting this - we're trying to figure out what the best model is for our community. A lot of other apps follow a similar model, we allow people to cancel anytime and have refunded everyone that has forgotten to cancel. Some people also like having the subscription because it is a pay per use model rather than putting everyone under the same one-off bundle. We're working on extending the free trial / m…

Thanks, I appreciate your response on this, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following two points specifically:

- Why have you chosen to make users opt out of a subscription when the free trial ends, rather than letting them opt in?

- Why is the annual payment option pushed so hard, in favour of the monthly payment option?

I'm reiterating this because promoting an opt-in, monthly payment model (thus giving more opportunities for any unintentional ongoing payments to be noticed by the payer) seems to me to be the kindest approach to subscriptions for users with ADHD, and a model that would be most empathetic to their condition.