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Nomad vs. Kubernetes

nomadproject.io

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Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#131

Post by candiddevmike »

jeswin wrote: post #94

Despite its reputation, Kubernetes is actually quite easy to master for simple use cases. And affordable enough for more complex ones. The fundamental abstractions are as simple as they can be, representing concepts that you'd already be familiar with in a datacenter environment. A cluster has nodes (machines), and you can run multiple pods (which is the smallest deployable unit on the cluster) on each node. A pod ru…

Agreed. With k3s and friends, nomad is more complicated and requires other components (Consul, some kind of ingress) to match what you get out of the box.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#132

Post by darkwater »

q3k wrote: post #100
darkwater wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I think that's one of the biggest issues with how people use Kubernetes these days (another candidate being insisting on drive-by deploying a cluster from scratch instead of deferring to cloud providers or a dedicated platform team that can plan for long-term maintenance). I don't really understand how you can say this and then... > Kubernetes thrives in multi-tenant environments: you get huge resource savings…

> ... advocate for this. All what you are describing, which is basically what every hardcore k8s user/evangelist will tell you to do, it's reimplementing many, if not all, the features a Cloud provider is already giving you in their own resources. A well-designed KaaS offering from a cloud provider will do that by itself. GKE exposes GCP load balancers as an Ingress controller, IAM identities as Kubernetes RBAC ident…

> A well-designed KaaS offering from a cloud provider will do that by itself. GKE exposes GCP load balancers as an Ingress controller, IAM identities as Kubernetes RBAC identities, persistent disks as PVs, ... You just get them under a single declarative API.

My experience with EKS on AWS tells me that it's not that simple, there are still many things to be glued together. I understand AWS historical position on K8s, and they probably want to keep the k8s experience on AWS good but not awesome but I'm pretty sure that there are even in GCP still serious gaps between "native" GCP features and k8s ones, where you end up reimplementing them on both sides. But I'm no GCP expert so I might be totally wrong.

> With a platform team you're concentrating already existing responsibility into a team that can specialize in operational excellence - vs. that same responsibility being spread out across product teams that have to individually manage their own cloud resources, reinventing the wheel by writing the same terraform/{ansible,puppet,chef,...} boilerplate poorly. My experience is that these per-team bespoke AWS deployments are much more brittle than whatever a dedicated team can provide if given the responsibility and means to do things well.

I'm totally fine with this approach, and we are actually trying to implement it at $DAYJOB but I don't really get why you see thew AWS API as a different monster from the K8s API. With a complex enough system you will need many lines of YAML/charts/Terraform/whatever on the k8s just like CF/Terraform/Pulumi/whatever on AWS. And you can totally have a team that takes care of the quirks and details of AWS while exposing a usable and unified interface for services deployements to the the rest of the engineering organization. I understand if we were talking about bare metal vs Kubernetes (even on-prem), k8s would win hands-down. But in the cloud-native world, I don't really see that day vs night change. Everything has its tradeoffs and its quirks and bugs and corner cases.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#133

Post by throwaway923840 »

q3k wrote: post #43
jnsaff2 wrote: post #34

I liked Mesos when I worked on it, and it's been replaced by more modern tools like Nomad, but every time I have to work on k8s it's .. well it's being promoted like a cult, has a cult following and I think the whole thing is set up to suck up complexity and layering. How do you deploy a thing to run on k8s? One would think you deploy a manifest to it and that's it. Like yaml or json or hcl or whatever. No. The built…

> How do you deploy a thing to run on k8s? kubectl apply -f ~/git/infra/secretproject/prod.{json,yaml} One JSON/YAML file too uwieldy? Generate it using jsonnet/CUE/dhall/your favourite programming language. Or just talk directly to the Kubernetes API. You don't have to use Helm - in fact, you probably shouldn't be using Helm (as the whole idea of text templating YAML is... thoroughly ignorant in understanding what K…

> in fact, you probably shouldn't be using Helm

Funny that the thing you shouldn't use is what the entire Kubernetes ecosystem uses for deployment. It's almost like there's no good way to do it.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#134

Post by xfz »

daenney wrote: post #123

These kinds of posts, by the vendor comparing to a competitor, always leave such a bad taste in my mouth. They decrease my confidence in both the product and the vendor. Stand on your own merits. There's a saying in Dutch: "Wij van Wc-eend adviseren Wc-eend"[1]. It basically boils down to pretending to give advice or information but you're just promoting your own interests. [1]: https://untranslatable.co/p/amarens/wi…

The Hashicorp ones tend to be well written and informative. I have found them useful in the past, even though I usually loathe sales BS. In this case the bias is a bit more obvious but we know it's written by Hashicorp and can make allowances.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#135

Post by rkangel »

daenney wrote: post #123

These kinds of posts, by the vendor comparing to a competitor, always leave such a bad taste in my mouth. They decrease my confidence in both the product and the vendor. Stand on your own merits. There's a saying in Dutch: "Wij van Wc-eend adviseren Wc-eend"[1]. It basically boils down to pretending to give advice or information but you're just promoting your own interests. [1]: https://untranslatable.co/p/amarens/wi…

I know what mean, but it's not like they're pretending that much if it's an article hosted under nomadproject.io. The first question everyone is going to ask "why should I use this instead of K8s" so you might as well have a good answer.

On the other hand, the Rust project has purposefully avoided "Rust vs X" comparisons on its website. I can't find the HN comments to back this up, but people like steveklabnik have indicated that they don't find that sort of adversarial comparison to be useful. Rust has done an excellent job at community building, so I give a lot of credence to their approach.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#136

Post by xtracto »

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #118
jeswin wrote: post #94

Despite its reputation, Kubernetes is actually quite easy to master for simple use cases. And affordable enough for more complex ones. The fundamental abstractions are as simple as they can be, representing concepts that you'd already be familiar with in a datacenter environment. A cluster has nodes (machines), and you can run multiple pods (which is the smallest deployable unit on the cluster) on each node. A pod ru…

From a system architecture perspective, kubernetes is very complex since it handles a multitude of complexities, but that's why it _can_ be very simple from a user's perspective. Most of the complexity can be ignored (until you want it). It's the same reason I still like to use postgres when I can versus NoSQL until I know I need the one feature I may not be able to achieve with postgres: automatic sharding for massi…

> The rest of the features postgres (and friends) give easily (ACID etc) are very tricky to get right in a distributed system.

But that's just basically a calculated tradeoff of Postgres (and several CP databases) trading Availability for Consistency.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#137

Post by throwaway923840 »

_wldu wrote: post #96
tekkk wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was wrong with ECS Fargate if you don't mind me asking? Too expensive? Too vendor locked-in?

We want to apply consistent policies and technical controls across multiple dev groups that have multiple AWS accounts. K8s seems to be a good solution for that.

Was it not possible in ECS? Or did your teams just want to use K8s, and decided they would use the opportunity of wanting to organize things better as a reason to switch? It seems to me that with SSO and IAM you could create virtually any kind of access controls around ECS. K8s doesn't solve the multi-account problem, and federation in K8s can be quite difficult.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#138

Post by throwaway923840 »

daenney wrote: post #123

These kinds of posts, by the vendor comparing to a competitor, always leave such a bad taste in my mouth. They decrease my confidence in both the product and the vendor. Stand on your own merits. There's a saying in Dutch: "Wij van Wc-eend adviseren Wc-eend"[1]. It basically boils down to pretending to give advice or information but you're just promoting your own interests. [1]: https://untranslatable.co/p/amarens/wi…

The standard refrain in companies is "don't talk about your competitors, talk about yourself". And that's fine, unless nobody wants to buy your product because your competitor is all anyone talks about. At a certain point you do need to tell people why you're better than the competition.

But actually, they're not competitors. Hashicorp supports K8s clusters for their customers. Nomad is just a product they built that is an alternative to K8s, and plugs into their whole product suite. Someone has probably asked them many times, "Why should I use Nomad instead of K8s?" So they have a page about it.

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#139

Post by devit »

rkangel wrote: post #135
daenney wrote: post #123

These kinds of posts, by the vendor comparing to a competitor, always leave such a bad taste in my mouth. They decrease my confidence in both the product and the vendor. Stand on your own merits. There's a saying in Dutch: "Wij van Wc-eend adviseren Wc-eend"[1]. It basically boils down to pretending to give advice or information but you're just promoting your own interests. [1]: https://untranslatable.co/p/amarens/wi…

I know what mean, but it's not like they're pretending that much if it's an article hosted under nomadproject.io. The first question everyone is going to ask "why should I use this instead of K8s" so you might as well have a good answer. On the other hand, the Rust project has purposefully avoided "Rust vs X" comparisons on its website. I can't find the HN comments to back this up, but people like steveklabnik have i…

Well, Rust is currently the best programming language so it's the other languages that need to come up with a "X vs Rust".

Re: Nomad vs. Kubernetes

#140

Post by exdsq »

Does anyone know if Nomad can run on ChromeOS? I’ve had issues open with the Chrome and K8 teams to fix an error preventing it from working for months but I don’t think a fix will ever see the light of day, as it just gets passed around various repos.
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