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IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

arstechnica.com

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Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#31

Post by asguy »

gdavisson wrote: post #23
asguy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not weird. Vaccine mandates for covid are demanding people make health decisions they haven’t bought into. It’s not like covid is polio. The risk models are different. I had covid, it was like a really bad flu. I got vaccinated because I wanted to travel, and the adenovirus vector didn’t seem that risky. Why would I push that choice on someone else given what I know first-hand of the disease?

> It’s not like covid is polio. You're right, it's not like polio. In 1952, the worst polio outbreak in US history caused 3,145 deaths and 21,269 cases of paralysis (of varying levels) (ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_polio#Epidemics ). In the last roughly-year-and-a-half, COVID-19 has caused 716,370 reported deaths (ref: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100k... , but it'll probab…

The point I think you missed in that comparison is the risk analysis: polio has scary implications that are directly in front of you. So do things like ebola, HIV, etc.

People can understand them. When your everyman sees 99% of people doing fine pre-and-post covid, you can't ask them to have the same fear of the disease. It's unreasonable for you to to do so.

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#32

Post by asguy »

WillSlim95 wrote: post #25
asguy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not weird. Vaccine mandates for covid are demanding people make health decisions they haven’t bought into. It’s not like covid is polio. The risk models are different. I had covid, it was like a really bad flu. I got vaccinated because I wanted to travel, and the adenovirus vector didn’t seem that risky. Why would I push that choice on someone else given what I know first-hand of the disease?

Because what you know first hand of the disease is useless for others. My 54 year old uncle had COVID. He was just in the hospital for 5 days and came back no different from before COVID. My 29 year old friend spent 2 weeks ventilated in ICU and dying of multi organ failure The symptoms of COVID 19 are not always flu like. It is a spectrum of symptoms which is not yet understood why it expresses in different bodies d…

Were your examples vaccinated? This thread is talking about having issues with /others/ not being vaccinated. My point stands: if the vaccine works, why am I (a vaccinated person) worried about what someone else does?

I can keep taking boosters, keep wearing masks, keep trying to stay healthy. That has nothing to do with people (who are not me) doing whatever they want with their situation.

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#33

Post by asguy »

m-p-3 wrote: post #29
asguy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What outcome should I be looking out for?

List of potentially permanent post COVID symptoms * fatigue * memory problems sleep disturbances shortness of breath * anxiety and depression * general pain and discomfort difficulty thinking or concentrating posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/201... An example of an otherwise healthy person in excellent shape who is likely to have to face a career-ending pos…

That sounds like the side-effect list of some major prescription medications. I am thankful I have none of that.

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#34

Post by short12 »

Latty wrote: post #15
short12 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is drunk driving more dangerous than being unvaccinated? Just glancing at the stats drunk driving is significantly safer than being unvaccinated

I honestly don't know, my instinct is that in terms of danger to others (which was the topic at hand) it probably is, but either way, that wasn't really relevant to my point.

It is definitely relevant to your point because assumptions are being made about which has a worse outcome. Turns out on the national level drunk driving is a pittance vs unvaccinated. To bad they don't have equal liability

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#35

Post by gdavisson »

asguy wrote: post #31
gdavisson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s not like covid is polio. You're right, it's not like polio. In 1952, the worst polio outbreak in US history caused 3,145 deaths and 21,269 cases of paralysis (of varying levels) (ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_polio#Epidemics ). In the last roughly-year-and-a-half, COVID-19 has caused 716,370 reported deaths (ref: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100k... , but it'll probab…

The point I think you missed in that comparison is the risk analysis: polio has scary implications that are directly in front of you. So do things like ebola, HIV, etc. People can understand them. When your everyman sees 99% of people doing fine pre-and-post covid, you can't ask them to have the same fear of the disease. It's unreasonable for you to to do so.

The risk of death if you get polio is much higher than COVID, but the probability of getting COVID is much much higher than it was of getting polio. This makes the overall current risk if dying from COVID roughly 100x the overall risk of dying from polio was in 1952. I realize that, psychologically, a low-probability-high-risk event can seem scarier than a high-probability-lower-risk event, but is it really unreasonable of me to expect people to also be able to make rational assessments of overall danger? Do you really think we're complete slaves to our psychological biases?

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#36

Post by native_samples »

Latty wrote: post #9
asguy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the vaccine and masks work, why do people who have taken it and wear them, need to worry? What is this narrative we’re pushing today? You’re acting like by not taking the vaccine, they’re directly violating people who did take it. How do you square that circle? P.S. I’m vaccinated. I’m also not worried about being around people who aren’t.

This is like asking why if seatbelts work, we don't let people drunk drive (obviously drunk driving is more dangerous than being unvaccinated, not claiming it's a perfect 1:1 analogy, before people complain, just making the point that just because we have safeguards doesn't mean we can ignore the core issue). Vaccines and masks work, but they aren't 100% effective. The effectiveness of vaccines is far higher if every…

"The effectiveness of vaccines is far higher if everyone who can be vaccinated is, as the protective effect is multiplicative."

That appears to be a talking point that was just invented on the spot.

No, vaccines don't have any kind of multiplicative effect. How would that work? That isn't what herd immunity means (or are we still not supposed to talk about that concept? I can't keep track). Herd immunity doesn't change the effectiveness of the vaccine for those who took it, it's only meant to be of benefit to people who don't (can't/won't) take it.

Especially there cannot be any such effect from a 100% leaky vaccines that have already entirely stopped protecting people against infection - see the UK stats for proof.

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#37

Post by WillSlim95 »

asguy wrote: post #32
WillSlim95 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because what you know first hand of the disease is useless for others. My 54 year old uncle had COVID. He was just in the hospital for 5 days and came back no different from before COVID. My 29 year old friend spent 2 weeks ventilated in ICU and dying of multi organ failure The symptoms of COVID 19 are not always flu like. It is a spectrum of symptoms which is not yet understood why it expresses in different bodies d…

Were your examples vaccinated? This thread is talking about having issues with /others/ not being vaccinated. My point stands: if the vaccine works, why am I (a vaccinated person) worried about what someone else does? I can keep taking boosters, keep wearing masks, keep trying to stay healthy. That has nothing to do with people (who are not me) doing whatever they want with their situation.

As for my examples, they were hit by COVID a month before vaccines were made available to them

Vaccines work when a significant part of the population has them, if workplaces and schools can institute vaccine mandates against diseases like Diphtheria, Measles, Rubella etc. Why should a disease much more infectious than them not get a mandate?

For a stark example see this thread https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/571113104920027136?t=r...

If someone has access to the vaccine in their area and have not taken it yet for any reason other than a medical reason should really do some proper "research" and get it ASAP.

As a vaccinated person, why you should care or not other people get vaccinated or not?

1. Less reservoirs for viruses to mutate into more harmful strains.

2. There are people who are immunocompromised , who cannot take vaccines . They are protected by those who are healthy and have been vaccinated.

3. >90% of all recent COVID deaths in the US have been of unvaccinated persons. A non trivial percent of the vaccinated dead by COVID were immunocompromised who were infected by unvaccinated folks.

If these reasons cannot convince you, I don't know what can.

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#38

Post by asguy »

gdavisson wrote: post #35
asguy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point I think you missed in that comparison is the risk analysis: polio has scary implications that are directly in front of you. So do things like ebola, HIV, etc. People can understand them. When your everyman sees 99% of people doing fine pre-and-post covid, you can't ask them to have the same fear of the disease. It's unreasonable for you to to do so.

The risk of death if you get polio is much higher than COVID, but the probability of getting COVID is much much higher than it was of getting polio. This makes the overall current risk if dying from COVID roughly 100x the overall risk of dying from polio was in 1952. I realize that, psychologically, a low-probability-high-risk event can seem scarier than a high-probability-lower-risk event, but is it really unreasona…

> ... is it really unreasonable of me to expect people to also be able to make rational assessments of overall danger? Do you really think we're complete slaves to our psychological biases?

I think that asking a bunch of "chimps with logic" to be rational actors when they're being fomented by propaganda/half-truths/conspiracy theories is unreasonable. At the very least, I believe it will lead to your disappointment.

In my mind, this applies to the people that are hyper pro and hyper against getting vaccinated for covid.

Re: IBM and airlines won’t comply with Texas governor’s ban on vaccine mandates

#39

Post by asguy »

WillSlim95 wrote: post #37
asguy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were your examples vaccinated? This thread is talking about having issues with /others/ not being vaccinated. My point stands: if the vaccine works, why am I (a vaccinated person) worried about what someone else does? I can keep taking boosters, keep wearing masks, keep trying to stay healthy. That has nothing to do with people (who are not me) doing whatever they want with their situation.

As for my examples, they were hit by COVID a month before vaccines were made available to them Vaccines work when a significant part of the population has them, if workplaces and schools can institute vaccine mandates against diseases like Diphtheria, Measles, Rubella etc. Why should a disease much more infectious than them not get a mandate? For a stark example see this thread https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/5…

> As for my examples, they were hit by COVID a month before vaccines were made available to them

I'm sorry for your relations that caught it, but my question was rhetorical. Using unvaccinated people's suffering doesn't help the argument that we should force people to get vaccinated against their will, if the vaccines work for people who want to take them.

If you suffer when you are unvaccinated-by-choice, then that is on you.

> 1. Less reservoirs for viruses to mutate into more harmful strains.

As opposed to the population that has taken the vaccine, but is still capable of catching it due to "break through cases"? Wouldn't a "leaky" vaccine cause more mutation due to evolutionary pressure than people catching it and building immunity?

> 2. There are people who are immunocompromised , who cannot take vaccines . They are protected by those who are healthy and have been vaccinated.

Why are they "protected", and the people who aren't vaccinated by choice not "protected"?

> 3. >90% of all recent COVID deaths in the US have been of unvaccinated persons. A non trivial percent of the vaccinated dead by COVID were immunocompromised who were infected by unvaccinated folks.

What happens when an vaccinated person has a break through case and gives it to an unvaccinated person who is immunocompromised?

> If these reasons cannot convince you, I don't know what can.

I'm not convinced. This seems more like an ethics litany than a reason we should a) create two classes of citizenry (the vaccinated and the unvaccinated) or b) violate people's body autonomy "for their own good".

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