Live data from Hacker News

Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

justice.gov

201–210 of 367 posts

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on country/state you could possibly sue for wrongful termination. In addition, you could send your story to media or contact someone higher in the food chain of the company.

I reported them to OSHA and to the state health authority. This was a while ago. I got reminded of it today and posted the story because I had a call this week asking me to send in written testimony in addition to the form I filled out. Wrongful termination is a no-go. I talked to a literal slew of lawyers. The amount I'd be looking to recover would be probably the cost of court. Also chump change compared to my over…

I’ve worked in healthcareIT and the biggest diagnostics firm and yes: the more they speak about meaningful job and patient first the bigger the facade that in reality it is about their money and their career.

I would be curious to know from your learnings where you think engineers/product people should head to be fullfilled in such environments as I am starting to be clueless. Thanks

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#202
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible this is the initial charge to get them in the door with search warrants and subpoenas and testimony because someone dropped a dime with some info that there were criminal acts not know to the government at the time, not covered by the settlement. I doubt the settlement was a "you're pardoned for ALL acts related to 737 MAX." A refresher since this happened so long ago: Airbus was eating Boeing's 737 sal…

> Except...they also cheaped out on both the number of sensors and even the frigging lightbulbs to warn pilots of sensor error. I believe that the issue was more tragic than that (no expert)... They wanted to 'hide' the fly by wire (FBW) as for it to be apparent would require that the plane (effectively) be re-classified as a new plane, requiring expensive up-skilling of the pilots. The existence of the new FBW was e…

adding a light bulb, the disagree error was only shown in the optional heads up display.

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#203
post #164

It is important to note that Boeing settled for 2.5 billion in which it is agreed that "...the misconduct by its former employees was “neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management". ( https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-reaches-2-5-billion-sett... ). So remember, when push comes to shove, the technical lead always gets thrown to the wol…

I was thinking this too. Seems to be a pattern since Volkswagen scandal; blame the rank and file employee... As if the employee had any incentive at all to lie about the performance of the plane. This is disgusting. The directors who pressured the employee to lie and then tried to use them as a scapegoat should be jailed for life.

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#204
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a gig at a hospital. They got an MBA Karen with 3 years of experience. She learned the very basics of IT, then started micromanaging. As in, she'd tell you what switches to put on CLI commands. If you said that's wrong, or would cause data corruption - you're not a team player. The entire team of 18 people were not team players - the team consisted of her alone. One time, she told me to do something very dange…

I'm puzzled by the do not discriminate bit, doesn't that mean you do discriminate by only choosing the names you can't pronounce? Minutae aside, as a European I'm shocked and appalled at that process, but surely an employment tribunal would have been the next step? Seems open and shut if you have the details to hand and everything evidenced properly. That said I'm sure you probably didn't want to be there from that p…

I only took the gig so I could get the vaccine as soon as it came out. It was a huge pay cut, and a very easy job. Why fight to stay and keep working somewhere you don't want to be, when instead you could get an extra 3k/month on unemployment?

Corporations are a useful thing, and are commonly used stateside to do shady things - like getting paid by a customer, but not officially working. Like collect unemployment, while collecting dividends for a contract your company has with a customer. What you have to do is keep applying for jobs. Most of the spam my linkedin gets is from indian recruiters. There is zero chance one of them can get you a job in the states. The ones that can will all have a name you can pronounce.

It is possible to get a payout for wrongful termination. This will count against your unemployment claim. It will cost (as the estimates in my case were) 10-20k for the attorney. I will likely have to go to court/arbitration, and it takes lots and lots of time and stress. As someone who is a company owner, I spend about 50 hours/week on owning my company (not working for my company). I can get a max of about 20-25k for the wrongful termination... It's just not the right way to go.

As a sidebar, I've worked and lived in France, Catalonia, Russia, and Japan - while living in those countries. I am in fact originally from Europe, but came stateside at a young age. Outside of Russia, the US has the crappiest "process" as you call it. It's a country where that process was put in place by corporations, to result exactly in this: the process is just not worth it.

The "do not discriminate bit" was sarcasm. We have this thing in this great country, where the people who do the most discriminating are the ones who complain most about being discriminated against. What to do if you're a criminal or a bully? Claim you're a victim. I won't go into that, because by this country's standards, I'm going to be flagged as a racist.

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you talk about the FAA doing thier own testing and validation is (unfortunately) almost impossible. Back in the 90s, a senior FAA official (I think a Director) had said something along the lines of “The FAA does not and cannot check everything, we just see that companies are doing their tests.” The FAA would require several times more manpower to be able to actually audit or test everything, and that is assuming…

Your comment boils down to a false dilemma fallacy between "FAA blindly trusts manufacturers" and "FAA conducts their own testing and validation." Clearly they could have been more actively reviewing stuff coming from Boeing, or engaging in some level of auditing. If the FAA had paid attention they would have seen a company desperate to compete modifying numerous basic characteristics of an airplane to the point of m…

Actually, this is a sauce effect of the complexity of modern systems: regulators have no choice but to trust companies and regulate the results of tests, with heavy penalties for cheating. Consider pharmaceutical trials: it's impractical for the FDA to check on each patient. Financial audits often assume the client isn't directly lying to the auditor, with criminal penalties as the disincentive.

The alternative requires raising costs and slowing progress and innovation, which is a nonstart in a competitive environment such as Boeing vs Airbus.

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#206

Rather than acknowledge and address the massive issues caused by instances of regulatory capture, such as this, or realizing the dangers that result from systemic issues with Boeing's incentive structure for management, facilitated by regulatory capture, the Federal Government and Boeing execs are just gonna scapegoat this guy. Nice. He was still incredibly stupid and made horrible choices, but the environment he was…

I thought management’s job was about creating “culture”.

Except when that culture is toxic

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#207
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fly by wire isn’t really the right term here. Fly by wire means that control inputs are transmitted to actuators via an electrical signal (rather than by a hydraulic or mechanical connection). As far as I know, the 737 MAX retains conventional primary flight controls. Lots of airliners with conventional flight controls also have various forms of artificial stability that modify pilot inputs (such as yaw dampers).

The trim can be controlled by an electrical motor in the 737, and the MCAS system in question here controls that motor, so you could argue its part of a FBW system (but I guess normally you refer to the main flight surfaces which are not FBW in the 737 like you say).

Ah yes, that is a fair point. However, in that case we are not talking about 'adding' a new FBW control system, as the system was already in place on previous models.

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#208
post #164

It is important to note that Boeing settled for 2.5 billion in which it is agreed that "...the misconduct by its former employees was “neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management". ( https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-reaches-2-5-billion-sett... ). So remember, when push comes to shove, the technical lead always gets thrown to the wol…

I took a gig at a hospital. They got an MBA Karen with 3 years of experience. She learned the very basics of IT, then started micromanaging. As in, she'd tell you what switches to put on CLI commands. If you said that's wrong, or would cause data corruption - you're not a team player. The entire team of 18 people were not team players - the team consisted of her alone. One time, she told me to do something very dange…

Quality is made in the board room. A worker can deliver lower quality, but she cannot deliver quality better than the system allows.

- W. Edwards Deming

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#209
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible this is the initial charge to get them in the door with search warrants and subpoenas and testimony because someone dropped a dime with some info that there were criminal acts not know to the government at the time, not covered by the settlement. I doubt the settlement was a "you're pardoned for ALL acts related to 737 MAX." A refresher since this happened so long ago: Airbus was eating Boeing's 737 sal…

> Except...they also cheaped out on both the number of sensors and even the frigging lightbulbs to warn pilots of sensor error. I believe that the issue was more tragic than that (no expert)... They wanted to 'hide' the fly by wire (FBW) as for it to be apparent would require that the plane (effectively) be re-classified as a new plane, requiring expensive up-skilling of the pilots. The existence of the new FBW was e…

The warning light shows a disagreement between the two AOA sensors, not the pitot tubes used for airspeed measurement (of which there are three on the 737).

Re: Former Boeing 737 Max Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud

#210
post #175
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably when it is shown beyond a reasonable doubt that they conspired or deliberately overlooked the fraud. The prosecutor has every incentive to get participants to roll over and follow the conspiracy as high up the ladder as it goes. Successfully prosecuting such a large profile case, particularly with defendants with very little public sympathy, would make his/her career.

Since you’re not going to find any documentation of that because of CYA, and Boeing is the flagship US aircraft manufacturer with a protected (as in ‘in the interest of national security’ protected) position to offset Airbus - that’s pretty much not going to happen.

I think it would be possible to ring-fence the individuals to be prosecuted, facilitate an orderly handover of power inside Boeing, and then prosecute the individuals without risking mortal damage to the company.
Post reply on HN