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Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

nytimes.com

311–320 of 354 posts

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#311
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that forcing donations to be anonymous would come into conflict with the first amendment.

If you really believe that campaign contributions are constitutionally-protected speech, then outright political bribery should be legalized. Anonymizing campaign contributions wouldn't have an effect on political speech and it wouldn't have an effect on who you gave money to. (You'd still be free to say who you contributed to. You'd also be free to lie about who you donated to.) It would only change the way the mone…

Do you think you should limit how much time someone can volunteer on a campaign? What about famous people expressing their opinion? These have the same effect as someone donating money. They just favor different groups of people.

It's not bribery to try and support someone whose views you agree with, or to have experts available to answer questions on complicated issues. Remember, campaign contributions don't give them a house, or boats, or planes, etc.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And i'm talking percentage of income and percentage of income after deducting cost of living.

That is a stupid way to measure how much one should pay in tax, honestly. You rent, electricity, food and clothing doesn't go up because you double your income (unless you move, but then you presumably get better housing too). Why should your tax?

I'll assume you're trolling but the relatively inelastic nature of fix costs like room and board, food, entertainment etc. is part of the reasons for promoting a progressive tax system. Those who have made fortunes here in the us are likely those who have benefited from federal and state oversight and infrastructure, which is an additional justification behind taxing the wealthier members of society at a progressive rate.

For the anecdotal insight on this: paying about 20k a year in federal taxes with my current annual salary is nothing compared to the impact of the 5k or so a year in taxes I paid when I was a poor waiter/college student in terms of its impact on my budget. At this point I could easily pay out an extra 10 or 20k with out severely impacting my quality of life or rate of savings; corollary, a few extra thousand back when I wasn't making all that much money would have been the difference between sleeping on an air mattress versus a real bed, or having enough good (as in nutritionally worth while) food to eat.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#313
post #22

The problem is getting low to middle income people to stop voting against themselves. Good luck with that, they all seem to think they are going to be billionaires someday so better keep those billionaire taxes low. Either that or by bribing the wealthy with low taxes they might only ship out half the jobs overseas instead of all of them. It's just dumbfounding. Election after election, over and over.

I don't think I'm going to be a billionaire someday, and if I did I couldn't care less about tax rates.

I do think however that maybe I'll be able to retire some day before I die. But the likelihood of this is very much affected by LTCG rate, wouldn't you agree?

Now how is it even fair that long term capital gains taxes even exist? I make some money, I pay taxes on it. I buy whatever instrument I hope will be the best at preserving the value of it (since I know if I just stuff the money under the mattress, I won't be able to buy much with it in say 40 years). After 40 years, the nominal price of the thing I bought will have gone up, chiefly due to inflation. When I sell it, I pay taxes again. How is it not double taxation?

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really believe that campaign contributions are constitutionally-protected speech, then outright political bribery should be legalized. Anonymizing campaign contributions wouldn't have an effect on political speech and it wouldn't have an effect on who you gave money to. (You'd still be free to say who you contributed to. You'd also be free to lie about who you donated to.) It would only change the way the mone…

Do you think you should limit how much time someone can volunteer on a campaign? What about famous people expressing their opinion? These have the same effect as someone donating money. They just favor different groups of people. It's not bribery to try and support someone whose views you agree with, or to have experts available to answer questions on complicated issues. Remember, campaign contributions don't give th…

You're missing the point. Limiting campaign contributions is not a part of this. The point is to anonymize donations so that there can be no way for the candidate to correlate a contribution to a donor. That way the quid pro quo that is implicit in campaign contributions would go away. Politicians would have to go back to representing voters again.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand your question. I don't mean that statement to be argumentative – I really don't understand. Are you saying the top 1% should pay what I paid in taxes last year? I paid around $100k. I'm not sure why someone making millions to billions a year should only pay $100k. If you assert I should pay the same as high-income individuals, should someone making far less than I am also pay $100k? To fli…

I was just trying to point out the fact that taxes is one of the few (if not only thing) that is almost always paid as a percentage of income. This messes up how people see taxes and how the burden is distributed. And make people say things like Warren Buffent pays less taxes than I do. You don't buy soldiers, schools, police officers and roads with percentage of incomes. You buy them with dollars, which is why I arg…

Although the rich do not necessarily use more of some services (i.e. food stamps), they benefit the most from government's main role: That of protecting property, ensuring safety/stability, and enforcing the law and contracts.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#316

Once I realized that you could take all the money from the rich, stop all defense spending, and still have a massive budget problem? These sorts of things stopped being an issue for me. Seriously folks, it's a red herring, an issue created to make sure that one party has something to fight the other party over. If you want to sack the rich, have at it. Just don't pretend that by taking that position you are doing any…

Ah, the poor little rich minorities. We've simply got to protect them from everything. They "create jobs" or something, after all.

Though, that's actually wrong, too. 98% of small business tax filers earn less than US$250,000 a year, yet account for 64% of the job creation (or "net new jobs") in the last 15 years and employ over half of the working US population [1].

I'm sorry, but the rich are not bothering with a This whole mess is the placation of the rich because they'll "move" if we don't give them everything. The question is, what country would they move to? I mean, I'm sure Singapore is nice and all; but it's hot as hell there, and don't they have Universal Healthcare with government-mandated price controls, which is supposedly every rich man's nightmare according to Fox News?

Russia is nice, too, I suppose. If and only if you're former politburo or an officer, or just a jackbooted mafioso thug (or willing to take any or all of those on without Uncle Sam backing you up).

Hong Kong is part of a communist country that only recently has conveniently added capitalism to their repertoire. If that doesn't work out for them, how soon would they "nationalize" all of that island and it's hard-won successes contained therein?

Of course, others have noted Somalia, Mexico, and various developing countries. Take your pick.

"If you want to set the income tax at 95% of all money made over a million bucks? Have at it. It's not important."

If it's not important, why all the falsities about "taking everything from the rich" and stopping all defense spending and it not mattering? It would matter a shitload, no offense. DoD + discretionary spending (which the military swallows almost all of) is almost 40% of the entire budget.

What's left is Medicare and SS, which in 2000 was well-funded and flush with +2 Trillion in the kitty. The tax breaks of 2001 and 2003 and the wars of roughly the same time erased nearly all that and left IOUs. Now, you're blaming those programs for our downfall.

So, yeah, you're right, it's not about taxes, it's about those "poor people" who "do not even pay an income tax".

[1] http://www.sba.gov/advocacy/7495/8420

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#317
post #26
post #14

Voluntary gifts of money can be sent to the U.S. Treasury at this address: http://www.fms.treas.gov/faq/moretopics_gifts.html One has to ask, if any super rich person really considered the U.S. Government a worthwhile investment, why are they donating to various charities instead of to the Treasury?

Most decent charities deliver far more per unit donated than the US government could ever wish to achieve. If you're interested in pure charity, you're not going to get much bang for your buck at the federal level.

Got any facts to back that up?

The American Red Cross, a large, established, and reputable charity, has about 9% general and administrative costs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Red_Cross

Medicare, a large, inefficient government fiasco (note: irony) has 3% overhead: http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourc...

Many charities do far worse than the ARC.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#318

All of the comments here attacking Warren Buffett's authenticity, suggesting that he should put his money where his mouth is and write the Treasury a big fat check, are missing the whole point. Services provided by the government are public goods. It's blindingly obvious that a single person cannot pay for those public goods. Just Buffett's own contributions, no matter how much he donates, will not be enough to solve…

I'll try to help you out a bit.

Taxation is Mutual Coercion, Mutually Agreed On.

The phrase was used by Dr. Garrett Hardin in his 1968 essay on global overpopulation, "The Tragedy of the Commons".

Oh, and the example Hardin explicitly cited as an example of mutual coercion? Taxes:

"Who enjoys taxes? We all grumble about them. But we accept compulsory taxes because we recognize that voluntary taxes would favor the conscienceless. We institute and (grumblingly) support taxes and other coercive devices to escape the horror of the commons."

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_tragedy_of_...

The "just pay voluntary taxes" has been very, very dead for well over 40 years.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#319
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that gifts to charity aren't coercive. I know, it's strange to say that it's a problem if it isn't coercive, and I'd agree that many of the inefficiencies of government stem from the coercive nature of taxes (no need to convince people to give you money if you can just take it by force). But I'm really a moderate in all of this - I personally don't think a modern state can survive on donations, or a "p…

Even at the current tax rates, Buffet properly pays more than you do. And he certainly pay more than those who are on the various forms of government relief.

I was a little worried that when I wrote that the rich should pay "more" without specifying that I meant a higher tax rate, someone would point out that they would pay "more" in the absolute even at a lower tax rate (as if I'm unaware that 10,000,000 * .24 > 100,000 * .24).

I really like open debate and discussion, but why do we go through this charade of nitpicking? It's clear that my post supports progressive taxation, so why get all crapped up about some non-existent ambiguity around the word more. If you're opposed to progressive taxation, and you think that warren buffet pays so much "more" in the absolute under a regressive or flat tax that it's fair to tax him at a lower rate than your average middle class worker, by all means, express your opinion. I certainly wouldn't downmod someone for disagreeing with me, and I think that probably goes for most of the people on hacker news.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#320
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate income taxes are taxes on the owners of corporations. Well, no.

Well, thank you for your informative response. Without a corporate income tax owners can withdraw the incomes minus dividend taxes. With corporate income tax they can withdraw income minus corporate income tax minus dividend taxes. How can you say they're not the ones paying the tax when the money could go directly in their pockets if not for the tax?

Corporate money belongs to the corporation, not to the shareholders. Corporation is a separate legal entity, it has its own property rights and its own will power. It also has an obligation to heed the interest of all stakeholders, including shareholders, employees, managers, customers, the public etc. Shareholders exert certain level of control over corporation, similar to how the board, the management, the employees and the customers have their own power, and while shareholders can change the board, they don't have any kind of fine-grained control, and even their control over the board might be limited by the corporate charter.

To say that corporate money belongs to the shareholdes is to trivialize a very intricate balance of powers.

Corporate income tax is a tax on corporate income. You can't call it shareholder tax any more than you can call it employee tax (or employment reduction incentive, if you will), or manager bonus tax, or capital re-investment tax. It's all of the above, and then some. It's not just one of the above.

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