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No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

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Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#51

Post by rw »

tptacek wrote: post #30
rw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Representation is arbitrary. IP laws identify "intellectual property" by representation. IP laws are not adapting, and they aren't able to adapt. The situation is hopeless and unenforceable: encrypt a DVD-rip or music file and then ask someone to identify it as such. It's impossible. We have to move beyond believing in copyright and IP laws because they are not enforceable.

Why is this true? Why do you think DVD copy protection is doomed to fail? Smart tech people who think this are usually falling into the trap of assuming DVD copy protection has to be perfect. It doesn't; it just has to make large-scale copying and distribution economically irrational. So far, the BD+ scheme on Blu-Ray disks has had to be bypassed title by title, with Slysoft's breaks being corrected by Macrovision an…

To make copy protection work, consumers have to be coerced/convinced into using locked-down systems. If we use systems that we have total control over, then copy protection will never succeed. There still is the analog hole, as well.

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#52

Post by elai »

lunchbox wrote: post #10
noodle wrote: post #3

no, silly, piracy is not theft. piracy is piracy, its not a theft or not theft issue, its a different animal. the rebuttal makes the assumption that pirates will actually pay for the item if they can't get it for free. 90% (i made this number up) of pirates would not pay for the item that they're pirating. hypothetically, if i were unable to pirate photoshop, i'd use gimp instead. i wouldn't go buy photoshop. so, pir…

OK, accepting your made-up figure of 90%, what about the other 10% who would pay for the item they're pirating?

And adding to that, the piracy can become a very valuable form of marketing, where the kids pirate it for school and buy it for business, thus possibly increasing your net income.

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#53

Post by mindslight »

tptacek wrote: post #30
rw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Representation is arbitrary. IP laws identify "intellectual property" by representation. IP laws are not adapting, and they aren't able to adapt. The situation is hopeless and unenforceable: encrypt a DVD-rip or music file and then ask someone to identify it as such. It's impossible. We have to move beyond believing in copyright and IP laws because they are not enforceable.

Why is this true? Why do you think DVD copy protection is doomed to fail? Smart tech people who think this are usually falling into the trap of assuming DVD copy protection has to be perfect. It doesn't; it just has to make large-scale copying and distribution economically irrational. So far, the BD+ scheme on Blu-Ray disks has had to be bypassed title by title, with Slysoft's breaks being corrected by Macrovision an…

You're concentrating on the wrong side of technology. In order to prevent copying, one has to do so on _every_ computing/playback device, not only the content producer blessed ones.

As long as we've got private communications, it will become ever easier to share media over the internet. It only takes one "Pirate_0" to break the copy protection (even if it requires digitizing LCD signals). And if breaking the protection requires substantial capital, the market will oblige.

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#54

Post by noonespecial »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #41
philh wrote: post #37

>A much better analogy for digital piracy is sneaking into a theater to watch a movie. You are not stealing a copy of that movie, and the theater is free to show the movie to others. But you are stealing revenue that the theater would have earned had you rightfully purchased a ticket. Some cinemas are set up to facilitate sneaking in: having passed the usher to get into one film, you can then stay and watch any numbe…

I'd like to see some evidence or indication that this is deliberate on any level.

I had friends who worked in a local theater and we hung out there quite a bit. The manager was locally famous for instructing employees to turn a blind eye to "lurkers" because "If you stay in a movie theater that long, you're gonna be hungry and thirsty eventually".

Turns out that the rental on the reels was so high that the ticket sales themselves were basically a break even proposition. $7 popcorn and $4 sodas are a completely different story.

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#55

Post by shard »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #41
philh wrote: post #37

>A much better analogy for digital piracy is sneaking into a theater to watch a movie. You are not stealing a copy of that movie, and the theater is free to show the movie to others. But you are stealing revenue that the theater would have earned had you rightfully purchased a ticket. Some cinemas are set up to facilitate sneaking in: having passed the usher to get into one film, you can then stay and watch any numbe…

I'd like to see some evidence or indication that this is deliberate on any level.

Not quite the semi-deliberate situation that the parent referred to, but does an explicitly deliberate occurrence count? I've had a theater manager let me and my two friends in to see a film for free and to thank him, we bought snacks at the snack bar even though we just ate. The theater was mostly empty (the movie was "Jesus Is Magic" in case you were wondering), which was probably his motivation. No, I did not know the manager personally.

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#56

Post by qwph »

sabat wrote: post #38
lunchbox wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, accepting your made-up figure of 90%, what about the other 10% who would pay for the item they're pirating?

Get a new business model. Trying to 'sell' software is like trying to hug water.

This is exactly the reason any software I develop in my spare time I'd release as an open source project.

I think open source also has a more attractive price tag too, but maybe I might consider selling support somewhere down the line...

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#57

Post by netcan »

sabat wrote: post #38
lunchbox wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, accepting your made-up figure of 90%, what about the other 10% who would pay for the item they're pirating?

Get a new business model. Trying to 'sell' software is like trying to hug water.

Unless you're Apple

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#58

Post by mrtron »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #40
mrtron wrote: post #15

Piracy is a strange beast, but it is definitely NOT theft. If I download a song - it does not directly negatively impact the artist. They aren't out anything. The indirect impact on the artist is another matter. They are potentially out of a sale that could have otherwise happened without the piracy. However, they are also potentially gaining a sale from a user who would have not normally purchased their music, but d…

"However, they are also potentially gaining a sale from a user who would have not normally purchased their music, but downloaded and decided to buy." The analogy breaks down because music and other forms of media are just pure information, so there is no reason to buy it if you already downloaded it, especially as the friction of obtaining an illegal copy is reduced to zero.

I read this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and then purchased the book later on.

Why? Because I found it was a useful book and wanted to support the author and own a physical copy. I also would have never purchased the book if I hadn't been able to go through it first online.

I realize that I wasn't pirating - but the analogy doesn't break down in the manner you suggest.

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#59

Post by netcan »

duhblow7 wrote: post #46
lunchbox wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, accepting your made-up figure of 90%, what about the other 10% who would pay for the item they're pirating?

The simple fact that you can divide the users downloading copyrighted material into multiple groups would mean that the term 'piracy' is a broader term. it's like piracy is the main subject and theft or non-theft piracy would be the stubs. PIRACY / \ LOST REVENUE NO LOST REVENUE | | THEFT NOT THEFT Piracy is not theft. This is one of those...a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square...type of deals, or m…

So you think that the definition of theft requires lost revenue?

Would you accept that in end cases?

Say you steal a toy from a child that has piles of em? They don't even notice. Not theft?

Re: No, Silly, Piracy is Theft

#60

Post by netcan »

cdr wrote: post #24
lunchbox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm challenging your assertion that "piracy does not steal income".

The 10% is not spread across every item of the whole. 90% of the time, there is no lost income because there was never any potential to begin with. Piracy steals income infrequently at best.

I think you guys are going down the wrong path here.

It doesn't matter (to the status of piracy) whether or not piracy is harmful or any other consequences. If 90% of shoplifters get hit with a sudden case of Dostoevsky & slip envelopes under doors resulting in 120% ... It would still be theft. Just like assault is still assault if they sober up & buy you an icecream.

I'm not saying piracy is theft. It is different enough to warrant its own word (& its own treatment). 'Preventing revenue' is not a reasonable explanation. Standing outside a store and yelling like a madman scaring away customers is also preventing (stealing?) revenue.

In some cases, I think that piracy is helpful to companies (photoshop might be an example) in others it's harmful. But that's besides the point. You can invoke that in a wider discussion of how laws should be made or you may be making a moral assertion that rights & such aren't important, only consequences. But that's not really our system (or most people's understanding).

Anyway this discussion is 90% semantics. It's only important to propaganda campaigns (saying stealing is more effective then saying violating copyright).

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