On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality • Hacker News Board

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#181

Post by 001Diana » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

chadd wrote: post #10

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventual expat here (clock is running on citizenship elsewhere through an investment program). I would not recommend filing your taxes yourself if you're a non-US resident with citizenship. It's cumbersome because of mechanizations to prevent tax evasion. There's room for improvement, but expats have very little pull congressionally in getting reform done to improve the experience. These fees should also be made dedu…

it's extremely easy to file the FBAR forms. and the rest are standard tax forms, and you even get to file later. I lived abroad and ran a US and Argentine company and had 2 accountants and a bookkeeper, so it can get complex when you have a lot of employees, but for the first few years abroad, when it was just me doing remote consulting, i just did it myself and it's not difficult.

It isn’t complicated to file FBAR, but why should we have to give all our bank account details to the US when citizens living there would only have to under criminal investigation? Also if the US decides you are owing taxes/fines and you live in a country that assists the IRS with collection, they have all your account details.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#182

Post by op00to » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

noasaservice wrote: post #101

> then charging me $2350 to file the divorce papers. So, if I understand correctly, the very fact that I was squirted out here in this country puts me at a -$2350 just for being born. So US citizenship = -$2350

Really? you were squirted out into a modern society managed by modern government institutions. Ignoring the fact that you’re discounting the miracle of life, you certainly took advantage of more than $2350 of services upon birth. Security, med school funding, Medicare hospital funding, road infrastructure…

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#183

Post by cheese_van » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:38 PM UTC

throw63738 wrote: post #72

voisin wrote: post #16

The conversation here at this moment seems to be focused solely on whether or not it is complicated or costly to keep filing US taxes. This misses the point in that the US is the _only_ developed country to impose worldwide taxation on its citizens regardless of where they live. The only other country to do so is Eritrea and the US has routinely criticized them for doing so. Moreover, it makes expats ineligible for c…

》This misses the point in that the US is the _only_ developed country to impose worldwide taxation on its citizens regardless of where they live Not really. Norway does that for 3 years after leaving. Australia is very opinionated and may not allow people to change tax residency, even after physically moving out...

Norway and....Maryland. I've lived abroad most of my career and unwisely lived in Maryland for a short time. When I left to go abroad again, Maryland insisted on taxing my earnings, despite the overseas domicile. I found trying to fight Maryland over taxes was exasperating and futile.

protip: if you live in Maryland, and plan an overseas life, establish a domicile in a tax friendly state beforehand. Then leave. Otherwise, Maryland will own you. A pox on Maryland.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#184

Post by cinquemb » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

a3e3 wrote: post #172

nickthemagicman wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there NO workarounds? I noticed you said 'many' and not 'all' banks. It looks like these banks work for expats. https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/ Something doesn't add up. From a non rich persons perspective it appears that person gave up her citizenship so she could essentially have a better selection of banks and to not have to use a VPN? It seems like a US citizenship is worth it? Th…

That page describes the situation for expats in general. It's different for U.S. citizens. Bunq, the first bank that's listed, has special requirements: https://together.bunq.com/d/2318-why-are-there-special-regul... With an SSN you can open a basic checking and savings account. However, you'll be denied for any type of investments. This also means U.S. citizens can't participate in pension plans of Dutch employees.…

> Even local crypto exchanges are refusing service

As long as one has non-US local friends/family who can cash out, I don't think this matters much (albeit in a local currency)

I think in this day in age, all of this is really depends on ones personal preference in how deeply they want to tie themselves directly to the traditional banking system (and traditional asset classes/financing/jobs/organizations) without even trying to give up US citizenship (because obviously, the process is a PITA).

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#185

Post by VWWHFSfQ » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #104

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I'm even less clear on what her issues were. Somehow this is reminding me of that girl that took $350,000 in debt to get a Theater Management degree from Duke University and then blogged about how criminal the American higher education system is and how she was running off to Russia with her husband to escape the crippling debt. It's like, you took almost half a mil in debt to go to a PRIVATE SCHOOL to get a deg…

> Then I'm even less clear on what her issues were I think the issues are pretty simple; if you are a US citizen but living and working in another country permanently with no US local income, she found the impact of FACTA and tax reporting obligations to be too expensive and or pain-in-the-butt to make it worth keeping her US citizenship. There are very real impacts and constraints on ex-pats in this situation; wheth…

Ah OK. So now it makes sense why this woman renounced her USA citizenship

She wanted to still be an American, but didn't want to do the yearly paperwork to keep her citizenship.

Got it.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#186

Post by LadyCailin » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

001Diana wrote: post #177

LadyCailin wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been (so far unsuccessful, but possibly successful in the future) attempts to ban US citizens who renounce from ever stepping foot in the US again. > (E) Former citizens who renounced citizenship.— Any alien who is a former citizen of the United States who officially renounced United States citizenship is inadmissible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)

This is banning reentry for those who have stated their reason for renouncing is due to tax avoidance. When I renounced I began telling them it was due to tax compliance, and they were very careful to not let me say tax avoidance. It is completely different. I’d be happy to pay an a amount to the US for citizenship every year but can’t deal with the thousands I pay accountants and the days I spend compiling and worki…

Yes, the Reed Amendment as passed is as you describe. However, see the section in the linked page on the SAFER Act.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#187

Post by ska » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #185

ska wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then I'm even less clear on what her issues were I think the issues are pretty simple; if you are a US citizen but living and working in another country permanently with no US local income, she found the impact of FACTA and tax reporting obligations to be too expensive and or pain-in-the-butt to make it worth keeping her US citizenship. There are very real impacts and constraints on ex-pats in this situation; wheth…

Ah OK. So now it makes sense why this woman renounced her USA citizenship She wanted to still be an American, but didn't want to do the yearly paperwork to keep her citizenship. Got it.

It's not just your paperwork. In many countries you'll be denied seemingly basic financial services by institutions because FACTA would make their paperwork too much hassle.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#188

Post by wmitty » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

PKop wrote: post #118

Why is there an assumption that citizenship should extend to people living outside of a country as citizens of another country? There's a lot of complaints here about annoying and costly taxation of "expats" but there's no discussion of why it should be valid to have citizenship but not reside in that country's borders? What is citizenship for except to actually be a citizen? And what does that mean, living in anothe…

I was born in the US to Canadian parents who promptly moved back to Canada where I have lived for the subsequent 55 years. Other than a US birth certificate I had no interaction with the US gov - we politely ignored eachother like a huge number of Canadians in the same situation. The informal status quo was that we both acted as if the "US citizenship by birth in the US" thing had not happened.

Until a few years ago when the US gov declared that I would be a criminal unless I became a full fledged US citizen. They also made this as difficult, expensive, confusing and time consuming as possible. For example having to find some paper documentation that is was living in Canada in 1967 etc. Huge costs - all of it going to specialist accountants - none to the IRS. And a huge complicated ongoing burden.

I am not even allowed to renounce until I have gone through this charade for a few years.

What has the US got out of this? They have processed lots of paperwork on my behalf and they have sent me some (unsolicited) stimulus checks which paid a tiny portion for the (Canadian) accountant fees they have saddled me with.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#189

Post by ramesh31 » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:57 PM UTC

rognjen wrote: post #39

What a whiny and melodramatic series of posts from a privileged person giving up one first class citizenship for another out of economics and convenience. Many of my compatriots wait longer, pay less in absolute but more in relative terms and celebrate afterwards. Lots of us would do well to be more grateful.

Agreed. US citizenship is probably the luckiest lottery ticket on earth. People literally die trying to get it. And she just brushes it off for the sake of paperwork.

Astounding.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#190

Post by cheese_van » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #116

sanedigital wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here. I’m a bit confused as to why you’d feel the need to share your opinion on a topic where you’re very clearly not well informed. As an American expat for five years, I can assure you her complaints are accurate. 1. Not remotely the same. As a resident of a particular state, your senators and congresspeople are certainly looking out for…

> It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here Im NOT! I'm trying to understand it. It appears that she's giving up her citizenship so she doesn't have to use a VPN and has a better selection of banks and to avoid paying $1000 a year? Seems like a citizenship is worth WAY more than that! Something doesn't add up here! Or do people with a lot of money just have a lot less toleranc…

In many EU countries, to have a telephone line (land or mobile). The same with internet access: you must have a bank account. But most local banks do not want local US customers. It's prohibitively onerous for them. Imagine trying to establish a life without a telephone or internet.