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On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

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Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#151

Post by digbybk »

PKop wrote: post #121
digbybk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagine that it'd be an emotional experience.

It's either a fiction or it's real. And given the privileges that come with being a citizen, of course it is not a fiction. But if it is meaningful, why should it not come with a cost? Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there, should this not come with corresponding responsibilities? Like paying taxes? And if there is value and meaning to being a citizen of a specific country why sh…

> It's either a fiction or it's real.

This I disagree with. Nations are real in the sense that they have a material impact on the world, but are fictions in the sense that they only exist when people believe in their existence. It's like money. Obviously money is real - I have some in my wallet right now - but if no one believed in the currency then it wouldn't exist. It would just be pieces of paper.

> Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there

I would quibble with the assertion that this is the _reason_ nations are constructed, but I do agree that they provide value.

Some people's lives are just more complicated. I'm a dual citizen myself, with two citizenships from birth. I was born in Canada from two American parents. I've had two passports all my life. I happen to live in the US but I've never really chosen one country over the other. I derive identify from being a citizen of North America. There are plenty of people with slightly more complicated than average stories, they should be able to exist.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#152

Post by bellyfullofbac »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #128
JeromeLon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mentioned it. FATCA is not targeting US citizens abroad, it's targeting financial organisations who have US citizens as clients. So, many banks around the world will have "Are you a US citizen" as one of the first questions to open an account, and if the answer is yes, they will politely decline any further requests.

Are there NO workarounds? I noticed you said 'many' and not 'all' banks. It looks like these banks work for expats. https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/ Something doesn't add up. From a non rich persons perspective it appears that person gave up her citizenship so she could essentially have a better selection of banks and to not have to use a VPN? It seems like a US citizenship is worth it? Th…

She also wrote "Without an address in the US, I can’t open an investment account there; with US nationality, it is becoming more and more difficult to do any investment or borrowing outside of the US.".

Yeah, how to remain non rich: keep your money in a savings account and not invest in stocks, etc. Want to start a business? Need a loan for that? Sorry...

Also that webpage doesn't even say those banks accept American clients, "expats" don't mean American, EU freedom of movement and ease of getting work visa means there's people from all over the world in the EU, either temporarily or permanently.

Addendum: I've also talked to someone who said she couldn't take some jobs because if she has access to the company's bank account, she has to report that to the IRS, maybe even the amount in that account, which of course no foreign company would volunteer unless they really have to.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#153

Post by namdnay »

PKop wrote: post #118

Why is there an assumption that citizenship should extend to people living outside of a country as citizens of another country? There's a lot of complaints here about annoying and costly taxation of "expats" but there's no discussion of why it should be valid to have citizenship but not reside in that country's borders? What is citizenship for except to actually be a citizen? And what does that mean, living in anothe…

What interest does it serve to make their life hard? She just wants to pay taxes where she works and lives. And what’s wrong with being a “rootless cosmopolitan”?

I don’t think anyone would mind losing their US citizenship as soon as they leave the country, if you could also regain it as soon as you enter

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#154

Post by LadyCailin »

PKop wrote: post #118

Why is there an assumption that citizenship should extend to people living outside of a country as citizens of another country? There's a lot of complaints here about annoying and costly taxation of "expats" but there's no discussion of why it should be valid to have citizenship but not reside in that country's borders? What is citizenship for except to actually be a citizen? And what does that mean, living in anothe…

If the renunciation fee weren’t $2k, you might have a point. But it is extremely expensive to renounce, and that by itself completely invalidates your implied point that there is some underlying reason for the cruelty.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#155

Post by 317070 »

PKop wrote: post #118

Why is there an assumption that citizenship should extend to people living outside of a country as citizens of another country? There's a lot of complaints here about annoying and costly taxation of "expats" but there's no discussion of why it should be valid to have citizenship but not reside in that country's borders? What is citizenship for except to actually be a citizen? And what does that mean, living in anothe…

Because the alternatives are pretty bad (although a middle ground should be possible, like some countries cancel your citizenship automatically when you acquire another): - Being stateless makes it virtually impossible to travel - Most countries are hesistant to grant citizenship to visitors

I see very little reason as to why rootlessness has been made really hard in our current global system. I am not sure in whose interest it is that this cosmopolitanism has been made so bureaucratic.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#156

Post by wrl »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #149
_g5q8 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't open a bank account with just a VPN. You also need an address in the US. And even if you do, how do you get money into that account? Do you think your employer in the Netherlands would match your 401(k) deposits?

There's tons of ways to get an address in the U.S. several digitally. You can transfer money into that account via digital transfer? OF course your Netherlands employer won't match 401k, they prob don't even know what that is. Will they match it a 401k if you GIVE UP your citizenship? Doesn't make sense.

Right, there are retirement/pension investments for Dutch/EU nationals which she is not eligible for because of her status as a US person (in the eyes of the SEC).

So, long story short, she's ineligible for investing as a US national unless she jumps through hoops to maintain a US address and appears to reside in the US. Meanwhile, she's ineligible for investing as a Dutch national because EU brokers won't deal with US nationals. Limbo.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#157

Post by jkfdrsak »

digbybk wrote: post #114
jkfdrsak wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage is voluntary and almost always necessitates an emotional element.

Based on this post, apparently citizenship is also voluntary. You might say that giving up citizenship is difficult and expensive, but you should talk to someone who has gone through a divorce. I would also counter that citizenship also almost always necessitates an emotional element. Citizenship is a primary part of many people's identity, and identity is the most emotionally charged thing of all.

Divorce might be expensive, but never getting married is cheep.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#158

Post by niij »

jaywalk wrote: post #75
Hamuko wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because she didn't owe any. And yet, she had to pay thousands out of pocket to prove it to the US government that she didn't owe any taxes and they still basically monitor her like a tax dodger (because obviously all Americans abroad are dodging taxes, right?).

If I don't owe the IRS anything, I don't get to just do nothing and be alright.

In some cases you don't have to do anything. If your income is below the standard decudction you don't need to file. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/052615/do-i-need-fi...

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#159

Post by jaycroft »

welder wrote: post #105
gumby wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why you might be downvoted, but it's extremely unlikely you'll end up owing more than 100%. I'm not an accountant but having filed multi-jurisdiction tax returns myself I don't see a mechanism by which this could happen.

I edited my comment, since 70% tax rate is actually possible depending on the tax rate of the country you're living and whether they have a tax treaty with the US or not.

Not only the US, but if you've ever claimed residence in California, they might decide to tax you for foreign income as well (if you accidentally leave any part of your life there behind when you move on, for example, leave a car registered there, or keep medical records with your doctor, even visit family there too often)! So add another potential 14% for high earners.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#160

Post by digbybk »

Lordarminius wrote: post #123
digbybk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagine that it'd be an emotional experience.

I'm interested in knowing:how is citizenship a legal fiction ?

It exists only when people believe it exists. If no one believed in your citizenship, your passport would just be a little notebook with no value. When going from a world without citizenship to a world with it, nothing needs to change outside of the human brain. In that sense, it’s a fiction.
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