What init system do the *BSDs use? Is systemd an option?
definitely not.
OpenBSD 7.0
161–170 of 229 posts
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
I recommend giving OpenBSD a try over the others. It's just... a clean OS, and the base system is extremely well documented; to the point that I think it's the only OS you can learn inside out without ever using Google. OpenBSD might not be the best choice for any given use, but it's so remarkably consistent and understandable that I think everyone interested in alternative OSes should try it out at least once.
I don't want a OS where I have to read man pages and documentation to get around. The whole self documentation excuse is the same reason why Emacs is slowly losing market share. People want software that is intuitive, and failing that, have all answers available on their favorite search engine. Short of baking a chatbot or search engine into OpenBSD, relying purely on self documentation is not sustainable. Though the…
Don't take this as argumentation against what you're saying, because it makes a lot of sense. However, I would love for my phone or Mac to at least have the option of reading the documentation, but it's not easily accessible. Some things a deemed so intuitive that it doesn't need documentation, yet I still can't use it or find it.
On OpenBSD, if you're stuck on something in ksh, cwm, pf or any other built in tool, the man page is right there. Easily accessible, easy to read and comprehensive. When I play around on my OpenBSD box, the man pages is often my first choice over a search engine.
Also, not confuse man pages on OpenBSD with Linux man pages. Those two are remarkably different. Many Linux tools have good and comprehensive man pages. On OpenBSD everything has great man pages.
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#163I used to use CentOS for all my Linux servers, but that's no longer an option of course. I've been using Vmware PhotonOS for Docker host VMs, and I'm pretty happy with it. For everything else though... I'm thinking Ubuntu, but I'm not sure. Might a *BSD be a good option? Does it have any real advantages over Linux? Or any drawbacks for that matter?
"that's no longer an option of course." why?
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#164What init system do the *BSDs use? Is systemd an option?
systemd doesn't support anything but Linux, as it is designed around Linux-specific APIs.
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#165I'd love to try but I'm experiencing hardcore option paralysis every time I start thinking about it. FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD – _that_ is the question. Wait, maybe DragonFly actually? illumos? ...wait, I mean OpenIndiana, I think... wait, what's OmniOS? Is Darwin a thing, like I could just have BSD and macOS for free or something?
Try them all. Or as a start, try any. You can eventually try them all.
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I recommend giving OpenBSD a try over the others. It's just... a clean OS, and the base system is extremely well documented; to the point that I think it's the only OS you can learn inside out without ever using Google. OpenBSD might not be the best choice for any given use, but it's so remarkably consistent and understandable that I think everyone interested in alternative OSes should try it out at least once.
OpenBSD has been the OS with the lowest amount of maintenance in my opinion. used it as a webserver and VPN appliance for a couple of years now. only thing in terms of maintenance is the following when a new release is released. pkg_add -u ( i usually update extra packages every 6 months, which is mainly lets encrypt). syspatch sysupgrade reboot: after reboot sysmerge to see if i need to do a config diff. Has been ro…
While sysupgrade is convenient, there's usually some manual steps.
Always read the upgrade guide before upgrading.
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn’t all that different from choosing the Linux OS of choice. That decision often is partnered with the package manager that’s desired, and how quickly things are upstreamed in it. Do you want apt, nix, yum/rpm? Then how stable do you want it? Debian, Ubuntu, etc? How much support are you looking for? Redhat, etc. I guess I don’t see a major difference in the complexity of that decision process in the Linux spa…
Not even close. Each BSD is it's own OS.
*its
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
My advice? Go with OpenBSD. These are the folks that brought you the word 'hackathon', and OpenSSH. (Ever use ssh? Thank OpenBSD.) These are the folks that actually bother to read not just a PR, but actual full codebases, just to make sure their pointers don't dangle. It's been years since the DevOps space was first told to prefer 'livestock' -- disposable, nearly-identical instances -- to pets -- long-lived customiz…
OpenBSD is definitely the free OS than I enjoyed running the most. I now use NixOS for most of my server and VM uses because I really appreciate being able to trivially keep all the configuration state in version control. However when I ran OpenBSD on an old Chromebook I did really enjoy using it, I made a point of trying to use just the base system and aside from needing a web browser it was extremely usable. The do…
I too have the nixos vs openbsd decision nibbling at me every time I spin something up.
Here's what helps me decide: I simulate a disaster. Since I'm just me, I do it on paper (empirical ways are best but are also the most expensive, and in a pinch, a thought experiment can illuminate as well. Not always the same things, but light is light.)
Try it -- open a scratch.txt and write about things that would happen, and then the things that would probably happen as a result of that.
The one that often comes up for NixOS is "I lose network connectivity." While NixOS is phenomenal in its ability to roll changes back, the fact that I need a stable Internet connection in order to make any change whatsoever to the current config makes that little piece of CAT-8 a SPOF for any number of unexpected (and intuitively unrelated) matters, making the overall system hard to reason about.
You can mitigate this by hosting your own NixOS channels, which is sort of the equivalent of hosting your own apt-get repo.
But, as you might expect, that's actually a fair amount of extra work. So I don't, especially not on laptops, where space can (still) be limited.
So, every time I do `home-manager switch` I need a viable network connection.
This is especially galling if you (like me) manage most of your apps with Nix' `home-manager`. Think it through; Nix manages (say) your word processor; you want to change the font size in your word processor; you edit your home.nix and hit `home-manager switch`.
But look at what this entails! My apartment building's fibre-optic cabling should never be a depenency on altering the font size in my word processor, but here I am. Ironically, for the sake of convenience.
Now, none of this is to slag on NixOS. As I mentioned above, it's my favourite way to encounter reality. I'm typing this to you on NixOS right now. For me, the pros outweigh the cons. Provided, of course, I have something less brittle than NixOS to back me up, and for me, that means OpenBSD.
I have an OpenBSD instance in the cloud and a break-glass procedure for getting into it. It backs up via another old-school friend, tarsnap. It hosts the git repos that contain my nixos and home-manager configs. If I can talk to it, I can simply zap my NixOS config onto some new edge device and be back up and running in no time.
I also typically have a NUC running OpenBSD present as well, in case that apartment-building fibre gets troublesome (again,) but not at the moment, because my beloved PCEngines device has apparently become unstable under any OS. But when I get that OBSD NUC set (back) up, it will absolutely have a NixOS channel on it, and it will serve as a firewall, a SAN, serving NixOS channels to the edge devices. It will have an actual serial port and a password on a wax-sealed bit of paper in my fireproof safe. Because I think ahead, and that's what I need to get back up and running under the worst circumstances.
I simply can't imagine a non-hardware-failure disaster that could take out an aggressively boring OpenBSD bastion instance. They are just relentless in their persistence.
As I keep saying, NixOS and OpenBSD pair together like honey and mustard. Contrastive but unexpectedly delicious.
Take-home: If you're building infra, try adding some OpenBSD to the mix. It can make the unrecoverable recoverable.
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#169I used to use CentOS for all my Linux servers, but that's no longer an option of course. I've been using Vmware PhotonOS for Docker host VMs, and I'm pretty happy with it. For everything else though... I'm thinking Ubuntu, but I'm not sure. Might a *BSD be a good option? Does it have any real advantages over Linux? Or any drawbacks for that matter?
CentOS Stream is a perfectly fine option and the practical differences from classic CentOS are insignificant for most users, especially people who are just running a homelab.
But if it makes you uncomfortable there's always Rocky or Alma Linux.
Re: OpenBSD 7.0
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
I recommend giving OpenBSD a try over the others. It's just... a clean OS, and the base system is extremely well documented; to the point that I think it's the only OS you can learn inside out without ever using Google. OpenBSD might not be the best choice for any given use, but it's so remarkably consistent and understandable that I think everyone interested in alternative OSes should try it out at least once.
I don't want a OS where I have to read man pages and documentation to get around. The whole self documentation excuse is the same reason why Emacs is slowly losing market share. People want software that is intuitive, and failing that, have all answers available on their favorite search engine. Short of baking a chatbot or search engine into OpenBSD, relying purely on self documentation is not sustainable. Though the…
Sure, you could make the OS CLI "intuitive" (by which I am sure you mean discoverable) by supplying the 'help' command, but in the end wouldn't this still amount to reading a bunch of text?..