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Michelin Airless

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Re: Michelin Airless

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is parent comment misspoke and meant pure nitrogen -- which does indeed help with tire pressure. The ideal gas law still applies, so there will be seasonal changes in pressure, but there will be much less exfiltration (via 'permeation', specifically) of gas through the material (N2 has a larger 'kinetic diameter' than O2; O2 will permeate 3-4x faster through rubber than N2).

So if regular air is 80% nitrogen already, won't the tires move towards 100% nitrogen with each top off since the tires will be retaining the nitrogen more than the oxygen? Sounds like a marketing trick unless they're filling newly mounted tires with 100% nitrogen.

That's a pretty clever thought in general, but yours is only a first approximation.

First, permeation decreases with pressure, at different rates for the two gases. If you consider only this fact you will find that the partial pressures of O2 and N2 asymptotically approach homeostasis, rather than simply all the O2 leaving and all the N2 remaining.

Second, permeability changes with temperature, so the ratio of O2 and N2 exfiltration rate changes seasonally, as each gas has a different permeability-vs-temperature curve. Third, the ideal gas law causes pressure changes seasonally which will also decrease exfiltration in winter, and once again, each gas will have its own permeability-vs-pressure curve, so these become very confounding factors.

All in all, the reality of the situation is that filling up your tires with atmospheric air will probably settle on partial pressure ratios of, say, 85/15 rather than 100/0. The deflation that you get comes from only about 5% of the O2 leaving the tire; and of course you get another big deflation when the weather first turns cold.

I don't know the exact numbers because I've frankly never thought to look into this before. So like I said, it was a clever thought! But it needed to be taken a few steps further.

Re: Michelin Airless

#192
post #67
post #13

Former automotive engineer chiming in. "Tweels" have been around a long time, but have always failed in terms of "NVH" (noise, vibration, harshness). Michelin is claiming that this generation of tweels are appropriate for passenger cars, which means that they think they've solved the NVH problem. They seem to be marketing these alongside EVs, I wonder if they're only really intended for lighter, compact-style cars. (…

Maybe the noise they generate is good for EVs which are dangerously quiet for pedestrians?

Ironically NVH is even more important in EVs since the engine noise no longer drowns out unpleasant sounds like fan motors, hums, squeaks/rattles

Re: Michelin Airless

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There does not have to exist a solid material with the properties of a gas.

What? I don't understand what you mean by that.

There's no reason to assume this is a solvable problem, just because it's a new field. I remember when cold fusion was considered inevitable.

You don't actually have any reason to assume it will happen other than blind optimism.

Re: Michelin Airless

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also want to add, since this is more of a deep auto-industry thing, that NVH testing is almost like longitudinal health studies. NVH engineers actually have charts of which specific frequencies our internal organs resonate at . For a layperson it's easy to imagine that NVH testing is just a matter of setting up a dB meter and some accelerometers to make sure things aren't bouncing around too much, but it's actually…

This was very cool to read; thanks for such an informative comment. I imagine this will sound naive, but I wonder why this sort of vibration can't be addressed with shock absorbers in the seats?

> I wonder why this sort of vibration can't be addressed with shock absorbers in the seats?

Not at all naive, because it is addressed with shock absorbers in the seats; that is one of the very many tools NVH engineers use. :) But they're not 'shock absorbers' in the way you're thinking; the actual foams used in the car seats are specifically designed and selected to dampen certain frequencies. But, kind of like a speaker or headphones or even ear plugs, the dampening happens over a spectrum, and in general our organs resonate at lower frequencies, which are harder for foamlike materials to dampen.

NVH engineers view the entire road-vehicle-driver system as a huge, complex, spring-mass-damper system, and do a whole ton of partial differential equations to solve for the outputs.

Edit to add: so why not use traditional 'shock absorbers', the spring-damper kind that you're used to seeing? For passenger vehicles the answer is weight and complexity. But many trucks and tractors and so on do in fact have these.

Re: Michelin Airless

#195
post #13

Former automotive engineer chiming in. "Tweels" have been around a long time, but have always failed in terms of "NVH" (noise, vibration, harshness). Michelin is claiming that this generation of tweels are appropriate for passenger cars, which means that they think they've solved the NVH problem. They seem to be marketing these alongside EVs, I wonder if they're only really intended for lighter, compact-style cars. (…

Complete layman here, every 6 months or so for the past decade I see an article claiming someone got air-less tires working. What are the chances this would be it ?

Air-less tires have been working fine for decades: https://www.nasa.gov/specials/wheels/

You'll also find industrial equipment examples like https://www.sourceproequipment.com.au/crocodile-skid-steer-b...

As the person you're replying to said, though, the problem for passenger cars is NVH. They aren't quiet.

Even with that downside, though, they are still used in consumer-facing applications like some bike sharing programs: https://medium.com/@fredchang/by-now-youve-probably-heard-of...

Where a smoother ride is less significant than unlocking a bike & finding a flat tire.

Re: Michelin Airless

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? There are small cans of spray which you can have easily with you. Got a flat? Look where, pull it out. Spray the foam in. Turn the wheel for a minute, look for overseen leaks, maybe, and pull stuff out of them. Turn wheel a few more times. Pump. Or use car-adapter for pump at gas station. Those stuff costs between 2 and 4€ for a can of sprayfoam, and maybe 50ct for a small adapter(sugar cube like, but cylindr…

You make it sound simple. It's not when I'm commuting. Even to use the sprayfoam sealers - I need to first identify the puncture and that's not always obvious. I've usually just changed the entire tube.

It's my experience. In case of unidentified punctures the foam leaks out (of them), and then you can remove the splinter, or whatever by hand, maybe with a paper tissue, or tweezers from your swiss officers knife, some multitool. Dunno. I don't have that many flats. About 5 or 6 since 2005? Each one maybe a 10 to 15 minute break.

edit: Thinking about it, one could even omit the spray can because in cities there's almost always a gas station near, which is stocking that stuff. So only the small adapter would be necessary, if your valves aren't like the ones for cars anyways. I didn't do that so far because I'm often bicycling out of the city, instead of into it.

Re: Michelin Airless

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if regular air is 80% nitrogen already, won't the tires move towards 100% nitrogen with each top off since the tires will be retaining the nitrogen more than the oxygen? Sounds like a marketing trick unless they're filling newly mounted tires with 100% nitrogen.

That's a pretty clever thought in general, but yours is only a first approximation. First, permeation decreases with pressure, at different rates for the two gases. If you consider only this fact you will find that the partial pressures of O2 and N2 asymptotically approach homeostasis, rather than simply all the O2 leaving and all the N2 remaining. Second, permeability changes with temperature, so the ratio of O2 and…

Thanks! I love getting answers like this from the community.

Re: Michelin Airless

#198
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use nitro oxygen in my tyres. Pressure problems are gone.

The Earth's atmosphere is about 80% nitrogen and a little less than 20% oxygen, with some carbon dioxide, argon, variable amounts of water vapor, and some pollution. What's "nitro oxygen", then?

I imagine it's a joke on people that use nitrogen.

Re: Michelin Airless

#199
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does still look to be a marketing excercise for now - I see no product availability to market in 6-12 months still.

For utility vehicles on sale now, it seems: https://tweel.michelinman.com/michelin-tweel-family-of-produ...

That product has been out for 5+ years I think (at least). Plenty of airless in low speed / farm type applications.

The real thing here would be high speed (65+) with good ride / noise.

Maybe launch on local fleet delivery vehicles first (ie, neighborhood driving etc) if there were some lighter options there? Service pickup trucks (light?).

Re: Michelin Airless

#200
post #13

Former automotive engineer chiming in. "Tweels" have been around a long time, but have always failed in terms of "NVH" (noise, vibration, harshness). Michelin is claiming that this generation of tweels are appropriate for passenger cars, which means that they think they've solved the NVH problem. They seem to be marketing these alongside EVs, I wonder if they're only really intended for lighter, compact-style cars. (…

Sorry for the conversation pivot, but this attitude sucks and is terrible for climate change and was decided wholesale by suppliers. While SUVs are leading sales in the US, it was the decision by car manufacturers to discontinue sales of anything other than SUVs in the US. That you say, "well these wheels which would reduce waste aren't useful for Americans," they are partly not useful because the car industry here pushed through advertising pressure (and yes, due to demand in part) for that outcome, it's a coupled two way street. So, that same industry bears some of the blame.
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