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Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

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Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#81

Post by buckie »

The_Beta wrote: post #15
buckie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to climate change in the 21st century, where we'll be outraged/distracted by everything but how ~100 companies are responsible for 70% of global emissions[1]. Today we’ll be talking about evil terrorism enabling cryptocurrencies. Tomorrow we’ll be talking about individual choice and SUVs. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...

I keep seeing this argument that companies are responsible for pollution. While yes it's true, why do you think those companies are polluting? It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!" They are creating products/services for people. So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution I…

> but pointing to a factory that pollutes because you buy their products and want their product cheaply is equally inane

Agreed, but I'm not pointing at the factories. Consumers _can't_ lobby congress or control the media narrative. Factories don't lobby congress nor spin a media narrative designed to distract attention from those profiting off dumping the externalities of the business models onto the world.

I'm pointing at the corporations (the sum actions of their boards & C-suites taken as a single entity) that own the factories and reap the rewards. I'm pointing at the people that have effectively "won" capitalism and then took it way too far by changing the law and controlling the narrative to make sure they stay in power no matter the costs.

I hope there's some resolution that doesn't require a revolution, though I suspect we'll just do _nothing_... then it'll be a mega-clusterfuck the likes of which we can barely imagine... and maybe after the first 10M-100M deaths due to famine/heat/fires/storms we may figure out that we need to do something... and it'll be too late and/or that something will be another major war.

But before that western society gets to decide how to handle storms/crop failures/droughts driving the largest human mass-migration EVER (Central America => USA, Africa/Middle East => Europe) during a period when resources are constraining.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#82

Post by fleddr »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #80
fleddr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you send me some of these random hashes? Since they're worthless? Bitcoin secures over a trillion USD. 1 in 6 Americans own Bitcoin and user growth is faster than the rise of the internet and Facebook combined. Companies/Wallstreet are in, VCs are in, the first country has used it as a legal currency. And yet you're still on this 12 year old narrative that it's worth zero?

>Can you send me some of these random hashes? Since they're worthless? WKRQE0GD2T074CCH6ZOH5DYFI4TX3RMEIKHS7AWEUVYEH030GA1B36U8C1L4OWEC 5DYFI4TX3RMEIKHS7AWEGEALOI1LNLZLHKGQ2I8MJEU1XAAQPRG5MUYXXNFR9QRQ W1T7OR1UZ20L6MAXB202PWTN0YQR4IXZ851CS6LB1HUL7AALT9Z8K1OZW7FIK9IS Y112I5BI0RQ04G6LS1XZ3V4C6CY5G97IOYQ0EJSLRQ6CK4ZGCMNXHH2O3NQQ4RVK XEIKU2MHPTOQOBPG3TCT09SBPGKR0WZ0UX119IBBBB0HORXV1F0YNF18ADQHE21I Go wild

I meant privately, now my wallet is leaking.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#83

Post by fleddr »

LurkingPenguin wrote: post #74
fleddr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very point of that council, which is brand new, is to give transparency and insight into the energy mix used to mine Bitcoin. You should never take any claim at face value, but it's quite lazy to dismiss their data without backing it up.

> The very point of that council, which is brand new, is to give transparency and insight into the energy mix used to mine Bitcoin. No, it isn't. Per the website: > The mandate of the Bitcoin Mining Council is to promote transparency, share best practices, and educate the public on the benefits of Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. So group that says it exists to promote Bitcoin mining and educate the public on the supposed…

You already made up your mind and reason from bad faith. You can't even quote them correctly.

The group doesn't exist to promote Bitcoin mining as if to encourage more companies to start mining. The group is there to explain why Bitcoin uses so much energy, encourages miners to give insights into this (which is sorely lacking, everybody is largely guessing right now) and shares best practices between miners to go for sustainable energy, and even better: stranded surplus sustainable energy, such as flaring.

Nowhere do their reports say they are "super sustainable", it's you fabricating these lazy labels.

Whilst mainstream media focuses on some rogue abandoned coal factory mining Bitcoin, in reality the conversion towards renewables for Bitcoin mining is moving ahead at a spectacular pace.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#84

Post by LurkingPenguin »

fleddr wrote: post #83
LurkingPenguin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very point of that council, which is brand new, is to give transparency and insight into the energy mix used to mine Bitcoin. No, it isn't. Per the website: > The mandate of the Bitcoin Mining Council is to promote transparency, share best practices, and educate the public on the benefits of Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. So group that says it exists to promote Bitcoin mining and educate the public on the supposed…

You already made up your mind and reason from bad faith. You can't even quote them correctly. The group doesn't exist to promote Bitcoin mining as if to encourage more companies to start mining. The group is there to explain why Bitcoin uses so much energy, encourages miners to give insights into this (which is sorely lacking, everybody is largely guessing right now) and shares best practices between miners to go for…

The quotes are taken directly from https://bitcoinminingcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/...

> Based on this data it is estimated that the global mining industry’s sustainable electricity mix had grown to approximately 56 percent, during Q2 2021, making it one of the most sustainable industries globally.

> “Despite China shutting down over 60 percent of the global Bitcoin network, the Bitcoin network experienced zero downtime, no bailouts, has registered no bankruptcies and simply adapted by redeploying its infrastructure into regions that have greater freedoms,” Mr. Feinstein said. “The network remains as strong as ever, it simply shrugs off adversity and moves forward.”

Accusing me of "fabricating" what anyone can verify for themselves in the link on the Bitcoin Mining Council website linked to above is absurd.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#85

Post by wyager »

reginold wrote: post #70
wyager wrote: post #19

Long-term, Bitcoin is reducing everyone’s electric bill by smoothing out the bathtub curve and making it economical to overprovision energy sources. Bitcoin mining can easily turn on and off as the price of energy fluctuates, so all of a sudden we have the ability to use energy sources like solar which need to be overprovisioned to ensure that e.g. bad weather doesn’t reduce grid capacity too much. Bitcoin mining jus…

Got sources? Curious to read about it. Is this a future effect or already happening?

This is my own analysis. I used to do some work in power markets (FTRs) so I’m reasonably familiar with the domain. I have heard other people say similar things so I’m sure there’s some content out there.

I expect this to take place over quite a long time - on the scale of decades. Power is super capital intensive and super regulated so it takes forever for things like this to work. If you ever see a nuclear power plant being built with a Bitcoin mine being constructed alongside it, you can be confident that the effect is in full force.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#86

Post by wyager »

StefanWestfal wrote: post #46
wyager wrote: post #19

Long-term, Bitcoin is reducing everyone’s electric bill by smoothing out the bathtub curve and making it economical to overprovision energy sources. Bitcoin mining can easily turn on and off as the price of energy fluctuates, so all of a sudden we have the ability to use energy sources like solar which need to be overprovisioned to ensure that e.g. bad weather doesn’t reduce grid capacity too much. Bitcoin mining jus…

Would it make it cheaper? I understood that the initial investment is the main cost factor for renewable energy sources. The full load hours for on-shore wind in Germany are about 40% of the total hours per year. You would then need 2.5x the amount of windmills to reach 100% This does not count for the fact that thier production is somewhat related (i.e. low wind speeds on all Europ) so you would need an even higher…

Medium term, I’m assuming that environmentalists are more or less correct that fossil fuels, coal, etc. have large uninternalized externalities. Increased electricity demand from any source will almost certainly increase the dollar price of electricity, at least until R&D allocation effects kick in. However, if environmentalists are correct, even if electricity is a little bit more expensive from increased demand, the type of power generation incentivized by Bitcoin will be less costly for society when externalities are included.

Long term, increased reliable electrical demand will hopefully lead to R&D that drives the dollar cost of power down as well.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#87

Post by fleddr »

helen___keller wrote: post #62
MrRadar wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would anyone who downvoted this comment please write why you did? It seems well-reasoned, factually correct, and does not violate any of the HN guidelines.

I thought it was a good comment except for the inflammatory zinger at the end: > a neat intellectual toy and speculative asset for the Silicon Valley / Wall Street set. For those in silicon valley or wall street this is probably a downvote. And for those who are fans of bitcoin it is definitely a downvote.

The Silicon Valley / Wall Street part is highly inaccurate, and I'd dare to say plain wrong as it comes to the specific crypto we're talking about: Bitcoin.

Bitcoin's invention and surrounding culture comes from cyberpunks. Whom are anti-government, anti-regulation, encourage civil disobedience, and so on. Unsurprisingly, culturally Bitcoin is highly popular with libertarians, which in the US you could qualify as a sub culture of the right wing. As such, it's an almost opposite of SC culture, which is liberal all the way to left wing (largely in name only).

As for Wallstreet, they only got in late 2020, and barely so, so it's quite a stretch to state that Bitcoin is a toy for Wallstreet.

In reality, these supposed hard lines uniquely found in US politics are soft as butter. Bitcoin isn't made for any group in particular, it is for everyone. It can be used by a greedy hyper capitalist day trader as well as a refugee looking to protect the little they have from inflation or confiscation. Bitcoin doesn't care.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#88

Post by fleddr »

nickthegreek wrote: post #79
fleddr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you send me some of these random hashes? Since they're worthless? Bitcoin secures over a trillion USD. 1 in 6 Americans own Bitcoin and user growth is faster than the rise of the internet and Facebook combined. Companies/Wallstreet are in, VCs are in, the first country has used it as a legal currency. And yet you're still on this 12 year old narrative that it's worth zero?

Where is this 1 in 6 figure coming from.. that doesn't sound right at all.

Admittedly, the stats are not fully consistent. This is due to the fact that it's hard to conclude on actual human users based on the amount of wallets. I've seen reports saying 1 in 6, 11%, and there's this report:

https://explodingtopics.com/blog/blockchain-stats

...which states 22% of US adults. If you select for a somewhat younger population (non-boomers), it's even 33%.

So I think the point stands, whether you pick the lowest or highest number amidst these studies. Bitcoin/crypto is far more widespread than some people think.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#89

Post by fleddr »

LurkingPenguin wrote: post #84
fleddr wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already made up your mind and reason from bad faith. You can't even quote them correctly. The group doesn't exist to promote Bitcoin mining as if to encourage more companies to start mining. The group is there to explain why Bitcoin uses so much energy, encourages miners to give insights into this (which is sorely lacking, everybody is largely guessing right now) and shares best practices between miners to go for…

The quotes are taken directly from https://bitcoinminingcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/... > Based on this data it is estimated that the global mining industry’s sustainable electricity mix had grown to approximately 56 percent, during Q2 2021, making it one of the most sustainable industries globally. > “Despite China shutting down over 60 percent of the global Bitcoin network, the Bitcoin network experience…

You didn't invalidate either of those two quotes with anything of substance, other than assuming they are wrong. That's bad faith reasoning.

You fabricated the term "super sustainable", which is claimed nowhere. The claim instead refers to the relatively high percentage of renewables compared to several other industries, whom often score in the 10-20% renewables range only. As to whether 56% is accurate, I don't know. Yet if you don't know, you can't be confident in it being wrong. You simply don't know.

The second quote isn't even a claim, it's what factually has happened. China shut down almost all Bitcoin mining overnight yet it did nothing to Bitcoin. The network self heals by means of a difficulty adjustment and miners moving elsewhere. A super power shut down the entire thing and months later the hash rate is right back where it was. That's extreme resiliency.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#90

Post by graeme »

kloch wrote: post #50
MereInterest wrote: post #7

When chain letters (e.g. the Send a Time pyramid scheme) caused impact to the postal system beyond what the system was designed to handle, to the detriment of the intended users of the system, chain letters were banned. Now, Bitcoin serves as a similar, though obfuscated, pyramid scheme that is detrimental to intended usage of the power system for productiviry or enjoyment. I see no reason not to apply the same solut…

I don't think it's reasonable to compare cryptocurrencies to chain letters. Chain letters' sole purpose is to enrich early adopters at the expense of later participants. While early adopters of cryptocurrencies frequently do reap windfall gains, it is not necessarily at the expense of later users as it is with chain letters. The early adopter benefits for cryptocurrencies are no different than early investors in a bu…

Please explain the mechanism by which early Bitcoin investors can gain money other than by later investors putting money in
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