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Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

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Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#71

Post by helen___keller »

MrRadar wrote: post #68
helen___keller wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was a good comment except for the inflammatory zinger at the end: > a neat intellectual toy and speculative asset for the Silicon Valley / Wall Street set. For those in silicon valley or wall street this is probably a downvote. And for those who are fans of bitcoin it is definitely a downvote.

While I understand that you don't like the way that's phrased, those are definitely two of the main groups currently involved in cryptocurrency. The only other group I can think of that has seen significant uptake of cryptocurrencies (and the only group actually using it as a currency ) are people engaged in criminal activities (whether that's evading capital controls, money laundering, drug dealing, or ransomware).

To be clear: I upvoted the post for the rest of the content, and I actually agree with sentiment, but I believe a large number of readers would have a gut reaction to immediately downvote when using that sort of inflammatory phrasing. That's the reason HN guidelines say to eschew flamebait: when you use dismissive or charged language, it incites an emotional reaction that is not related to the content of the post, which often results in mass downvoting or derailed discussions

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#72

Post by [deleted] »

helen___keller wrote: post #62
MrRadar wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would anyone who downvoted this comment please write why you did? It seems well-reasoned, factually correct, and does not violate any of the HN guidelines.

I thought it was a good comment except for the inflammatory zinger at the end: > a neat intellectual toy and speculative asset for the Silicon Valley / Wall Street set. For those in silicon valley or wall street this is probably a downvote. And for those who are fans of bitcoin it is definitely a downvote.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#73

Post by MrRadar »

helen___keller wrote: post #71
MrRadar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand that you don't like the way that's phrased, those are definitely two of the main groups currently involved in cryptocurrency. The only other group I can think of that has seen significant uptake of cryptocurrencies (and the only group actually using it as a currency ) are people engaged in criminal activities (whether that's evading capital controls, money laundering, drug dealing, or ransomware).

To be clear: I upvoted the post for the rest of the content, and I actually agree with sentiment, but I believe a large number of readers would have a gut reaction to immediately downvote when using that sort of inflammatory phrasing. That's the reason HN guidelines say to eschew flamebait: when you use dismissive or charged language, it incites an emotional reaction that is not related to the content of the post, wh…

I can agree with that.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#74

Post by LurkingPenguin »

fleddr wrote: post #63
LurkingPenguin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your link is press-release like article. It cites a self-reporting based survey published by the Bitcoin Mining Council, a "voluntary global forum of Bitcoin mining companies and other companies in the Bitcoin industry", that goes so far as to claim Bitcoin is "one of the most sustainable industries globally". This hardly seems like an objective, reputable source whose claims should be accepted at face value.

The very point of that council, which is brand new, is to give transparency and insight into the energy mix used to mine Bitcoin. You should never take any claim at face value, but it's quite lazy to dismiss their data without backing it up.

> The very point of that council, which is brand new, is to give transparency and insight into the energy mix used to mine Bitcoin.

No, it isn't. Per the website:

> The mandate of the Bitcoin Mining Council is to promote transparency, share best practices, and educate the public on the benefits of Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining.

So group that says it exists to promote Bitcoin mining and educate the public on the supposed benefits of Bitcoin mining publishes a study claiming that Bitcoin mining is super sustainable at a time when one of the biggest criticisms of Bitcoin is its energy use. Shocking!

> You should never take any claim at face value, but it's quite lazy to dismiss their data without backing it up.

It's the other way around. Groups making claims are responsible for backing them up, and there's arguably a higher standard for special interest groups who are conflicted and make claims that just happen to support their interests. Claims like Bitcoin is "one of the most sustainable industries globally" and "the network remains as strong as ever, it simply shrugs off adversity and moves forward".

Based on the press release and YouTube slides, this survey relied on self-reported data from parties who volunteered to answer 3 questions, with no independent verification that any of them responded accurately or truthfully. The responses (supposedly) cover (only) "32 percent of the current global Bitcoin network".

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#75

Post by mitchellst »

helen___keller wrote: post #71
MrRadar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand that you don't like the way that's phrased, those are definitely two of the main groups currently involved in cryptocurrency. The only other group I can think of that has seen significant uptake of cryptocurrencies (and the only group actually using it as a currency ) are people engaged in criminal activities (whether that's evading capital controls, money laundering, drug dealing, or ransomware).

To be clear: I upvoted the post for the rest of the content, and I actually agree with sentiment, but I believe a large number of readers would have a gut reaction to immediately downvote when using that sort of inflammatory phrasing. That's the reason HN guidelines say to eschew flamebait: when you use dismissive or charged language, it incites an emotional reaction that is not related to the content of the post, wh…

What I probably should have said: "maybe it will be fine, resolving itself with more clean energy and more electric grid capacity in mining-heavy areas, or more clever crypto tech. Or maybe we have a persistent incentives problem where the group that reaps the benefit (Silicon Valley inventors, Wall Street speculators) are distinct from the groups that bear the costs (including people near the welfare line in mining-heavy areas). A persistent incentive problem that isn't solved in relatively short order by general material abundance would be a case for regulation.

... better?

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#77

Post by TotHake »

VHRanger wrote: post #55
kloch wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare cryptocurrencies to chain letters. Chain letters' sole purpose is to enrich early adopters at the expense of later participants. While early adopters of cryptocurrencies frequently do reap windfall gains, it is not necessarily at the expense of later users as it is with chain letters. The early adopter benefits for cryptocurrencies are no different than early investors in a bu…

Crypto is not being used in any meaningful quantity for anything except speculation and crime. While some crypto may be at some point in the future a decent medium of exchange, at this point they're all deflationary and inefficient, leading only to uses in marketing stunts (Tesla, El Salvador, etc.)

Hot take! You left out "crypto is a bubble," "doesn't scale," and "the transaction fees!" though.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#78

Post by The_Beta »

what_is_orcas wrote: post #51
The_Beta wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep seeing this argument that companies are responsible for pollution. While yes it's true, why do you think those companies are polluting? It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!" They are creating products/services for people. So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution I…

> It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!" Of course not, but they do actively make decisions based on profit over sustainability. > So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution One voter voting on an issue doesn't change anything. These kinds of arguments must be made to convin…

> Of course not, but they do actively make decisions based on profit over sustainability.

and that's what they're supposed to do. Make the most profits while abiding by the law. As consumers start caring more about sustainable supply chains so will producers. When their profits get hurt because consumers choose a more sustainable product, then you'll see change. As long as consumers don't care and just want the cheapest thing (which unfortunately has been the great majority of people for the past 100 years) the producers won't care either

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#79

Post by nickthegreek »

fleddr wrote: post #69
Workaccount2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That energy has output besides random hashes.

Can you send me some of these random hashes? Since they're worthless? Bitcoin secures over a trillion USD. 1 in 6 Americans own Bitcoin and user growth is faster than the rise of the internet and Facebook combined. Companies/Wallstreet are in, VCs are in, the first country has used it as a legal currency. And yet you're still on this 12 year old narrative that it's worth zero?

Where is this 1 in 6 figure coming from.. that doesn't sound right at all.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#80

Post by Workaccount2 »

fleddr wrote: post #69
Workaccount2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That energy has output besides random hashes.

Can you send me some of these random hashes? Since they're worthless? Bitcoin secures over a trillion USD. 1 in 6 Americans own Bitcoin and user growth is faster than the rise of the internet and Facebook combined. Companies/Wallstreet are in, VCs are in, the first country has used it as a legal currency. And yet you're still on this 12 year old narrative that it's worth zero?

>Can you send me some of these random hashes? Since they're worthless?

WKRQE0GD2T074CCH6ZOH5DYFI4TX3RMEIKHS7AWEUVYEH030GA1B36U8C1L4OWEC

5DYFI4TX3RMEIKHS7AWEGEALOI1LNLZLHKGQ2I8MJEU1XAAQPRG5MUYXXNFR9QRQ

W1T7OR1UZ20L6MAXB202PWTN0YQR4IXZ851CS6LB1HUL7AALT9Z8K1OZW7FIK9IS

Y112I5BI0RQ04G6LS1XZ3V4C6CY5G97IOYQ0EJSLRQ6CK4ZGCMNXHH2O3NQQ4RVK

XEIKU2MHPTOQOBPG3TCT09SBPGKR0WZ0UX119IBBBB0HORXV1F0YNF18ADQHE21I

Go wild

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