Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

OpenBSD 7.0

openbsd.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 229 posts

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#91

Post by chasil »

yabones wrote: post #79
adamrt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, Bash is installed under /usr/local because it’s from packages and not part of the base system. The base shell, ksh, is at /bin/ksh. You probably know that but I just felt like being pedantic this morning :).

Yes, absolutely true. The idea is that `ksh` is good enough , and the extra features of bash are extraneous or unnecessary, making it an add-on rather than a core feature. It's an interesting idea, and while I feel bash is absolutely 'good enough' to be part of the base system, I wouldn't want zsh or fish part of my base system - so it's then a matter of opinion whose shell is bloat and whose is essential. So I respe…

Another issue is size. This is what I see on CentOS:

    $ ls -l /bin/bash /bin/dash /bin/mksh
    -rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 964536 Nov 22  2019 /bin/bash
    -rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 113536 Nov  5  2018 /bin/dash
    -rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 296192 Jan 27  2018 /bin/mksh
The Debian Almquist shell has nearly nothing beyond POSIX (I believe that local function variables are the only extension). This is the Ubuntu system shell, and it tolerates no bashisms. Alternate POSIX shell implementations in OCaml (and somewhat ADA) accuse Almquist of not using formal grammars and imply that dash is not a safe implementation.

https://www.irif.fr/_media/rencontres/pps2018/regis-gianas.p...

I would say that mksh implements 80% of bash functionality in much less space, and closely follows ksh88; mksh is also licensed such that Android uses it as /bin/sh.

Apple has switched from bash to zsh. I don't know the motivations for this, but preferences for shells wax and wane. BSD doesn't include bash (in base) more because of license than code quality.

POSIX seems to be all that we can agree on, but I do wish that standard could grow; it's stuck in the '70s.

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#92

Post by deltarholamda »

yung_steezy wrote: post #9
nanna wrote: post #6

Any BSD fans out there wish to persuade a happy Debian desktop user to take a BSD for a spin?

I would recommend FreeBSD if you were going to try one of them. The BSD experience a bit like using linux was like 15 years ago. Online DRM for sites like Netflix will not work for example. Specifically in the case of FreeBSD the filesystem is well curated and cohesive, if you feel a file ought to be in a certain location it is usually there. Additionally the manpages and docs are a joy to read. I'm less familiar wit…

>prioritising being a cohesive operating system and docs

This is one of the areas where OpenBSD really shines. Their documentation is really good. FreeBSD is also quite good, but I've been consistently impressed with OpenBSD's docs since 2.5.

Linux distros can't reach the same level of quality due to being less cohesive at the base, though they do make up for it with quantity. You can search for most Linux issues and find an answer.

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#93

Post by ink_13 »

mirekrusin wrote: post #90

I'd love to try but I'm experiencing hardcore option paralysis every time I start thinking about it. FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD – _that_ is the question. Wait, maybe DragonFly actually? illumos? ...wait, I mean OpenIndiana, I think... wait, what's OmniOS? Is Darwin a thing, like I could just have BSD and macOS for free or something?

IME it depends on your use case.

If you want something you can use as a border router/firewall, OpenBSD.

If you want something for more general-purpose computing (like a desktop or home server), FreeBSD.

If you want something you can install on your toaster, NetBSD.

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#94

Post by Filligree »

blacktriangle wrote: post #82
Filligree wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistency is great, but there's no equivalent to NixOS for the BSDs -- that I know of. Am I actually wrong about that? Is there some declarative configuration system I should be using, which I've simply never heard of?

I think we're talking about different definitions of consistency. In the BSD context, consistancy is that human effort has been put in to get the userspace to look similar. Similar behavior of command line tools, similar documentation, similar configuration, etc. It looks like you're talking about consistancy of packages across installs, which is a totally different issue.

No, that's the sort of consistency I was thinking of. I simply want that and all the niceties I'd get from NixOS.

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#95

Post by thuccess129 »

mirekrusin wrote: post #90

I'd love to try but I'm experiencing hardcore option paralysis every time I start thinking about it. FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD – _that_ is the question. Wait, maybe DragonFly actually? illumos? ...wait, I mean OpenIndiana, I think... wait, what's OmniOS? Is Darwin a thing, like I could just have BSD and macOS for free or something?

Next level-up cornucopia of options for postunix wannabe irckidz is 9P: 9legacy, 9front, 9fans. That is the cool as quantumcomputing question.

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#97

Post by [deleted] »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #19
tbrock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things are where you’d expect, patterns and conventions cary on throughout the system, etc… Vs the disjoint feeling linux has.

Part of the job of a Linux distribution is to provide policy, conventions, and similar consistency. If you install everything from sources directly, or directly from upstream vendors, you may get inconsistencies, but if you install everything from your Linux distribution, you should get reasonable consistency, just as if you install everything from your BSD distribution.

[deleted]

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#98

Post by evh »

agumonkey wrote: post #85
JoshTriplett wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Syntax of what?

cli programs, they all have different ways to handle arguments, options, help ps: another instance, albeit not a BSD strength either, would be data format, every output is different, I, like a few people too wanted some json as pivot representation to cut the thousands of papercuts, that kind of uniformity is what I expect from "system"

Lots (just some? most? I haven't really used it much) of FreeBSD system utilities are using libxo for output, so you can use e.g.

    ps --libxo json
and get json output, or xml/html

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#99

Post by dijit »

stiray wrote: post #86
gtirloni wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that would make me switch from Linux why exactly? Don't get me wrong, I was a BSD user for many years (FreeBSD 3.5-5.0) but I don't think that's enough reason to switch.

Reason for my switch was that some key things (for me) were designed in a way that seemed more right that on linux and this is totally subjective opinion. I am still running ubuntu on laptop and will switch when the next install is a thing, but I am running freebsd on server for years now and while i tremble on each update for the laptop, I dont for freebsd, even when updating from 12.x to 13.x. Based on years of exp…

Not to be that guy, but your Linux complaints sound like systemd complaints.

Not sure the teething process has finished there, but I share the sentiment.

Re: OpenBSD 7.0

#100

Post by andai »

space_ghost wrote: post #74
yabones wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux systems are made by dozens of disparate teams, and it shows. Every command has a different syntax - just think about how "help" could be -h, --help, -help, -? etc BSDs are very tightly integrated. The entire OS is very consistent and 'correct', down to the tiny and pedantic details like putting things under /usr that are usually installed in /bin, because that's the way it's supposed to be . (Ex. `/usr/local/bi…

Why is that "the way it's supposed to be," and how is it going to improve my user experience? It just seems like unnecessary complexity to me.

When things are consistent, less mental effort goes into remembering arbitrary differences.
Post reply on HN