Seems like a logical next step in shifting power at universities to the administrative staff. In 50 years universities are going to look like technical institutes - all the teaching and research staff will be employees that can be fired on a whim.
Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
11–20 of 72 posts
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#12Is tenure similar to the inability to fire arbitrary employees in parts of Europe?
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#13> Last month, the board published a draft policy that included a clause stating that a tenured professor could be removed for reasons “other than for cause,” which generated concern leading up to the approval of its final policy. > While that language is no longer in the approved policy, The controversial element was removed and the policy is now: you can be fired if you fail two annual reviews, make no progress agai…
So this process has worked for over a century producing one of the best academic systems in the world, but is no longer viable in 2021 because it is no longer possible to function with accountability?
I don't think tenure is the main cause of this, but I don't believe that the university system is in very good shape. It appears quite broken (massively increased costs and decreasing evidence of efficacy).
About 40+ years ago it was unquestionable that going to a university was the right choice for the vast majority. Now, it is far from clear.
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#14> Last month, the board published a draft policy that included a clause stating that a tenured professor could be removed for reasons “other than for cause,” which generated concern leading up to the approval of its final policy. > While that language is no longer in the approved policy, The controversial element was removed and the policy is now: you can be fired if you fail two annual reviews, make no progress agai…
So this process has worked for over a century producing one of the best academic systems in the world, but is no longer viable in 2021 because it is no longer possible to function with accountability?
But is that cause/effect?
Counter-argument: the system has worked _in spite of_ the tenure system that hinders accountability.
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#15Is tenure similar to the inability to fire arbitrary employees in parts of Europe?
Until this case, yes. From what I can gather, the goal of it is to allow for more abstract research that may draw criticism; a way to say "this person has been reliable and known reputable in this field for X time". Imagine a medical professor with tenure who wants to do research surrounding umbilical stem cells, or fetal research. Tenure, from my understanding, would give them some understanding or forgiveness for the controversial nature of their research topic.
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
So this process has worked for over a century producing one of the best academic systems in the world, but is no longer viable in 2021 because it is no longer possible to function with accountability?
I don't think tenure is the main cause of this, but I don't believe that the university system is in very good shape. It appears quite broken (massively increased costs and decreasing evidence of efficacy). About 40+ years ago it was unquestionable that going to a university was the right choice for the vast majority. Now, it is far from clear.
Before the internet you needed a fully stocked library with excellent organization and archive retrieval, top quality professors who could (because of technology) teach at-most an auditorium full of people, and the ability to meet in person with other people knowledgable of the subject which previously required a centralized meeting place (the university).
All of this is now provided with superior quality by the internet. Now the only advantage of a university is signaling where you got accepted, networking with similar people for future jobs, becoming socialized by a culture of university-types, and showing you have the discipline to jump through 4 years of fairly arbitrary hoops. There is value to this, but is it worth $200k+?
Additionally, the cost of education is so high that students are customers now. Expelling too many students is simply infeasible given the enormous debt issued by universities for their massive capital expansions (buildings, gyms, stadiums), and huge bureaucracies. Students are dictating the terms of who and what is being taught, and schools must cater to it or risk reducing their flow of new applicants, which is the death-knell of so many smaller liberal arts schools in recent years. Tenure threatens the ability to shape the school to match customer expectations.
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#17> Last month, the board published a draft policy that included a clause stating that a tenured professor could be removed for reasons “other than for cause,” which generated concern leading up to the approval of its final policy. > While that language is no longer in the approved policy, The controversial element was removed and the policy is now: you can be fired if you fail two annual reviews, make no progress agai…
So this process has worked for over a century producing one of the best academic systems in the world, but is no longer viable in 2021 because it is no longer possible to function with accountability?
That’s just a fig leaf for the real reason. Both the administrators of colleges and certain political groups have been waging a political fight against tenure for at least my entire life, probably longer. It seems like they’re pretty close to winning and professors are pretty close to losing.
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#18> Last month, the board published a draft policy that included a clause stating that a tenured professor could be removed for reasons “other than for cause,” which generated concern leading up to the approval of its final policy. > While that language is no longer in the approved policy, The controversial element was removed and the policy is now: you can be fired if you fail two annual reviews, make no progress agai…
I mean, that sounds like the normal CYA process to fire someone in the states. I've seen it used to fire all sorts of people who didn't deserve it on trumped up reviews and plan points.
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
So this process has worked for over a century producing one of the best academic systems in the world, but is no longer viable in 2021 because it is no longer possible to function with accountability?
I don't think tenure is the main cause of this, but I don't believe that the university system is in very good shape. It appears quite broken (massively increased costs and decreasing evidence of efficacy). About 40+ years ago it was unquestionable that going to a university was the right choice for the vast majority. Now, it is far from clear.
> It appears quite broken (massively increased costs and decreasing evidence of efficacy).
Of course, it’s not like those skyrocketing costs are going to the professors. So it’s kind of strange to point at costs as a reason to strip power from the one group that’s probably not responsible for said costs.
Personally I’d argue that if anyone inside colleges bears blame for the poor state of the college system, it’s the administrators. But of course they’re the ones that benefit from this change.
(Naturally there are parties outside colleges responsible for the change in costs too, these things are complicated).
Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure
#20I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it.
The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distinguish "fired for cause" from "fired for speaking out in ways that irritate the powers that be." The ability to fire people for cause is appropriate to businesses and startups, and even there we routinely hear about controversies where "for cause" is blurred together with "saying things that leadership didn't like." The tenure system was explicitly designed to prevent that, and yes, the "cost" of that system is that some dead wood will slip by -- but this has always been an acceptable cost. Our society relies on having a pool of people who cannot be easily silenced by their employers. We will suffer when those guarantees are weakened.
On a personal note: I'm a tenured CS professor and make less than half (often significantly less) than what my colleagues in industry make, for a job that often requires longer hours and a lot of travel. I also have had some experience with having my speech restricted by the administration [1] under the guise of "violations of University policy". As a tenured faculty member I stay because there is no other job where I can speak about anything I want, even if sometimes I say dumb things. My colleagues in industry can't do this -- some of them tell me they are scared to even "like" Tweets that criticize their employer. That's messed up.
To those folks who don't care about these broader arguments and think this decision is reasonable, that it "will improve faculty performance," even there you're wrong. If GA becomes the state that doesn't have tenure, all the best faculty will go to other states and/or to industry. Every state university already struggles to get top talent, and now GA has given themselves a huge hiring disadvantage. Whatever "productivity" benefits you might get from greater faculty control are going to be hugely outweighed by the fallout from this stupid (and obviously political) decision. The board of regents knows this, and they don't care.
[1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/johns-hopkin...