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False confessions

economist.com

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Re: False confessions

#41

Post by nikcub »

michaelschade wrote: post #3

Unfortunately not a lab test, I saw this on Frontline recently and it was very disturbing to see that confessions could be so easily had: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/etc/... Essentially, the story involves these sailors individually confessing to a crime (and allegedly tailoring their confessions to the investigator's words) when they were implicated by someone already being interrogated.…

The Frontline story was very eerie. The other famous case is the West Memphis Three:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three

Who were jailed partly because of a police-coerced confession from one of the three. They are still in prison, but apparently close to getting a re-trial.

The case was made famous by the excellent HBO documentary 'Paradise Lost' - which is a must see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost:_The_Child_Murder...

They are lucky because their case has a high-profile because of the film - but there must be many, many other innocent people in prisons because of false confessions.

For example, many people believe that Cameron Todd Willingham, executed in Texas, was also innocent (he was also the subject of a Frontline story:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1618590505/

and a feature in the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_...

Re: False confessions

#42

Post by roel_v »

mahyarm wrote: post #31
Duff wrote: post #6

Rule #1: Don't talk to the police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik You're better off taking the beating.

But don't take it to the extreme. Do talk a little bit 'What is the problem officer', 'Do you know why I pulled you over? -- No", "Am I free to go?" when it takes longer than it should and a little politeness can go a long way when your pulled over for a minor ticket. Shut up in all other situations, detainment, questioning, asking to search and especially once your arrested.

Well in the video a law school professor with experience as a criminal defense attorney and a police officer say otherwise. Saying 'no' to 'do you know why I pulled you over' is ok (I guess, as long as there are no other circumstances that make it plausible that you knew why you were being pulled over, in which case your 'no' would make you lying to the police), but initiating conversation with 'what is the problem' not.

Re: False confessions

#43

Post by roel_v »

baddox wrote: post #23
StavrosK wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's harder for the officer to lie and say that you said something when you refused to say anything. It's easier to just "slip" something in a conversation if you're talking to him in the first place.

How so? If your interaction with the cop wasn't recorded, even if you started out by saying "I choose to remain silent" and never said another word, the cop can easily testify that you said something. I don't see how it's "easier" to change an actual conversation than it is to completely fabricate one.

Only in the very technical, abstract sense. Interrogations, testimony and memories are about psychology, what has actually happened is only superficially related. When you have a long conversation with someone, it's easy for them to remember things you didn't say because they think they heard them. Watch the video linked above, for the example about the story the guy read to the audience. This is exactly what happens to everybody - I myself thought I was smarter than that, but I'm really stupid and stubborn like that and it took me at least 10 times being proven wrong before I internalized that no, the things I think I see and hear and remember are quite likely to be different from what actually happened (in criminal psychology and evidence classes, this was).

Anyway yes it's easier to change a conversation than to fabricate one; because "changing" can mean many things - intentionally lying is the least common occurrence, simple "neural" errors happen a lot more often.

Re: False confessions

#44

Post by roel_v »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #29
spodek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"how exactly does not talking help you?" You still communicate. You speak through your lawyer.

If you're extra paranoid just print out a card that says "as a policy I do not speak to the police except through a lawyer". Then you can present it to the police as necessary and use it as evidence if they attempt to claim you confessed something to them without a lawyer present.

There is no difference between saying that and having it on a card. Plus if it's on a card it's going to have been taken away from you when you were booked, or you may not be allowed to take it, or whatever. Or it may be used against you in another way, as most physical things are. Just repeat the same sentence and don't try to out-smart police and prosecutors with technical tricks.

(from reading discussions like this one on computer-oriented websites I have come to believe that nerds are especially easy to frame by a police man who recognizes a nerds innate desire to outsmart others, and to show it off. Look at where it got Hans Reiser).

Re: False confessions

#45

Post by tzs »

Duff wrote: post #6

Rule #1: Don't talk to the police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik You're better off taking the beating.

You are standing at the end of the block. You hear a woman scream "help! he's taking my baby!", and look up to see two men push a woman violently to the ground, snatch a baby from a stroller, jump into a car, and drive up the street in your direction.

They reach the intersection, where you get a good look at the men as they turn the corner. The drive halfway down the block, and turn into a driveway, pull into the garage at that house, and close the garage door, and then come out with the baby, and get into a car that was waiting in the driveway, and leave nonchalantly. You recognize the make and model of the car and are even able to read the license plate and memorize it.

You are the only witness to this part of their getaway.

The police quickly come, and ask you if you saw them men and were they went.

Are you REALLY going to say nothing? Or tell them you won't say anything without your lawyer present?

Re: False confessions

#46

Post by generalk »

tzs wrote: post #45
Duff wrote: post #6

Rule #1: Don't talk to the police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik You're better off taking the beating.

You are standing at the end of the block. You hear a woman scream "help! he's taking my baby!", and look up to see two men push a woman violently to the ground, snatch a baby from a stroller, jump into a car, and drive up the street in your direction. They reach the intersection, where you get a good look at the men as they turn the corner. The drive halfway down the block, and turn into a driveway, pull into the gar…

Did you watch the video?

Most of the time you'll talk to the police and tell them everything you saw and that's that. It's not likely the police will target you, but that's cold comfort if you somehow end up on the wrong end of a police investigation, which is the point of the video.

You sound smart, what are possible alternatives here? Call in an anonymous tip maybe, or describe exactly what you saw, then refuse further communication without counsel present.

Re: False confessions

#47

Post by Duff »

tzs wrote: post #45
Duff wrote: post #6

Rule #1: Don't talk to the police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik You're better off taking the beating.

You are standing at the end of the block. You hear a woman scream "help! he's taking my baby!", and look up to see two men push a woman violently to the ground, snatch a baby from a stroller, jump into a car, and drive up the street in your direction. They reach the intersection, where you get a good look at the men as they turn the corner. The drive halfway down the block, and turn into a driveway, pull into the gar…

In that scenario, you have a moral and legal obligation to report the crime. So you meet that obligation by giving the appropriate authorities the information they need, then leave.

Re: False confessions

#48

Post by wgren »

nikcub wrote: post #41
michaelschade wrote: post #3

Unfortunately not a lab test, I saw this on Frontline recently and it was very disturbing to see that confessions could be so easily had: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/etc/... Essentially, the story involves these sailors individually confessing to a crime (and allegedly tailoring their confessions to the investigator's words) when they were implicated by someone already being interrogated.…

The Frontline story was very eerie. The other famous case is the West Memphis Three: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three Who were jailed partly because of a police-coerced confession from one of the three. They are still in prison, but apparently close to getting a re-trial. The case was made famous by the excellent HBO documentary 'Paradise Lost' - which is a must see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradi…

An interesting read is "Remembering Satan", about a small community torn apart by accusations of sexual abuse and satanic rituals. Many people confessed, some were convicted, no evidence was ever produced.

http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Satan-Tragic-Recovered-Mem...

Re: False confessions

#49

Post by suprgeek »

When I was reading the article, I was wondering when they would get to the role of interrogations especially aggressive ones. I cannot find the link now but there was a study which subjected people to sustained questioning that went on for more than 3 hours without a break. After 3(?) hrs all the subjects were offered the chance to end the interview if they agreed to deposit some non-trivial amount of money for 60 days. Something like 95% of people agreed and even signed (fake but real looking) legal contracts to that effect - even tough most were students (not rich) recruited for the study.

Never underestimate the stress caused when in a room with people aggressively questioning you. Even if they do no physical harm, This is VERY stressful.

In the US - "Am I free to go?" and "I want a lawyer" should be at the top of your 2 item list when in this situation. Remember, the Police care about solving crimes certainly - they care more about clearing cases quickly.

Re: False confessions

#50

Post by mchusma »

While the experiment with the ALT key was interesting and can shed some light on this subject, it would be a mistake to extrapolate too much. I would be far more likely to assume "I probably did accidentally hit the ALT key" than "Oh, I probably did murder that person." Hitting the ALT key by accident is extremely easy, and the punishment in this study small relative to most criminal offenses.
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