Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat • Hacker News Board

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#251

Post by inyorgroove » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:28 AM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #248

The only realistic solution to this problem is to move the audio and video rendering server-side and stream final output to clients from the edge. You have to attack this from an information theory perspective. If the client receives the information in any manner whatsoever, you must assume it is being used in the most adversarial way possible. The AI problem is more complex, but that's more a function of how deep th…

Sorry to say. There are cheat solutions that can ingest video and emulate keyboard/mouse over usb to pretend to be the user. The kernel driver cheat detection might be able to detect this by only supporting keyboard or mouse device IDs on a whitelist? The cheaters could pretend to be one of those too.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#252

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #244

RattleyCooper wrote: post #86

> In its initial rollout on Call of Duty: Warzone, the kernel-level driver will only operate when you play on PC. The driver is not always-on. The software turns on when you start Call of Duty: Warzone and shuts down when you close the game. Oh that's good. > Plus, the kernel-level driver only monitors and reports activity related to Call of Duty. Oh, so in other words it reports everything since any software that mi…

This is just an accident waiting to happen. If they can't identify cheats on the server side then I highly doubt that they are able to engineer this in such a way that it does not have negative security implications.

[deleted]

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#253

Post by t-writescode » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

inyorgroove wrote: post #251

bob1029 wrote: post #248

The only realistic solution to this problem is to move the audio and video rendering server-side and stream final output to clients from the edge. You have to attack this from an information theory perspective. If the client receives the information in any manner whatsoever, you must assume it is being used in the most adversarial way possible. The AI problem is more complex, but that's more a function of how deep th…

Sorry to say. There are cheat solutions that can ingest video and emulate keyboard/mouse over usb to pretend to be the user. The kernel driver cheat detection might be able to detect this by only supporting keyboard or mouse device IDs on a whitelist? The cheaters could pretend to be one of those too.

There are cheat systems that run on a *different computer*. It is not a battle that can be won.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#254

Post by bob1029 » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

inyorgroove wrote: post #251

bob1029 wrote: post #248

The only realistic solution to this problem is to move the audio and video rendering server-side and stream final output to clients from the edge. You have to attack this from an information theory perspective. If the client receives the information in any manner whatsoever, you must assume it is being used in the most adversarial way possible. The AI problem is more complex, but that's more a function of how deep th…

Sorry to say. There are cheat solutions that can ingest video and emulate keyboard/mouse over usb to pretend to be the user. The kernel driver cheat detection might be able to detect this by only supporting keyboard or mouse device IDs on a whitelist? The cheaters could pretend to be one of those too.

We can barely make cars drive themselves with pure vision. I don't think one of these bots is going to make it out of silver league in competitive overwatch. Maybe for a game like counterstrike where it's 100% hitscan you have a stronger argument for machine vision pulling the trigger on an AWP placed on a corner.

Complexity and pacing of gameplay is going to eventually have to be one hedge against AI. It's effectively a continuous captcha.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#255

Post by aosaigh » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:37 AM UTC

To what extent are consoles protected from cheaters? I play COD on PS5 usually with cross play turned off. I feel like I may be a bit imperceptive as I never notice any obvious cheating. To what extent is there cheating on consoles vs PC?

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#256

Post by tester34 » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:37 AM UTC

Flow wrote: post #204

Client-side anti-cheat is a futile endeavor these days and besides being ineffective probably is user-hostile too. Server-side machine learning is the way to go. Also the server should not send info a legitimate client have no use of.

>Server-side machine learning is the way to go.

If it has 99% accuracy, then you're banning thousands of players

have fun dealing with tickets for them & review process

>Also the server should not send info a legitimate client have no use of.

do not games send "too much" in order to play around networking constrains?

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#257

Post by tibbydudeza » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

Brilliant - game devs doing kernel drivers.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#258

Post by vadfa » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:47 AM UTC

lemoncookiechip wrote: post #150

While I don't particularly like this sort of anti-cheat, I think we should all be more worried about cloud gaming than anything else. It's been obvious for a while that the big gaming companies have it in mind, and the only reason it isn't as big as it could be, is due to tech limitations FOR NOW. When (not if) cloud gaming truly takes off, and it will, we'll lose any and all control over our games. So long to moddin…

>It's been obvious for a while that the big gaming companies have it in mind, and the only reason it isn't as big as it could be, is due to tech limitations FOR NOW.

I'll begin to worry when the speed of light increases, making gaming through streaming practical.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#259

Post by inyorgroove » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:47 AM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #254

inyorgroove wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to say. There are cheat solutions that can ingest video and emulate keyboard/mouse over usb to pretend to be the user. The kernel driver cheat detection might be able to detect this by only supporting keyboard or mouse device IDs on a whitelist? The cheaters could pretend to be one of those too.

We can barely make cars drive themselves with pure vision. I don't think one of these bots is going to make it out of silver league in competitive overwatch. Maybe for a game like counterstrike where it's 100% hitscan you have a stronger argument for machine vision pulling the trigger on an AWP placed on a corner. Complexity and pacing of gameplay is going to eventually have to be one hedge against AI. It's effective…

I have no idea how well these things work right now, but they likely will get better over time.

Terrible bots can still spoil fun, for some of these people that is the only goal.

Re: Call of Duty Adds Kernel Level Driver for Anti-Cheat

#260

Post by darkcha0s » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:51 AM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #68

Cheaters are going to figure out a way to cheat. Even if it means some kind of TASBot device to physically press the buttons on a controller there will always be a way for someone to cheat.

But you've in a way just defended the move itself. Lots of people will spend 10$ on a .exe which makes them better, less will spend the time and effort to set up a TASBot device.