Live data from Hacker News

Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

euractiv.com

191–200 of 399 posts

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#191

It's worth noting that nuclear is really expensive when factoring in insurance and disposable, a lot more so than wind and solar. >The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nucle...

Reuters journalists also probably say that the markets are efficient.

Out here in the real world, people are paying $200/MWh and hedge funds are making billions.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re being glib, but the issue is that you can’t guarantee the alignment of sun and wind to match demand. Sometimes the wind blows at night, yes, but sometimes it does not. On a pure renewable grid, no wind at night means rolling brownouts or blackouts. This is particularly problematic during the summer when people want to run AC in order to sleep, and will also be an issue when people move to electric heat…

We can also use real time price mechanism to match demand with supply intra day, energy intensive loads like water/home heating and ev charging can cheaply (vs cost of batteries connected to grid) buffer many hours without issue.

An observation of Griddy during the Texas disaster shows that we should be very careful in designing a real time price mechanism that’s applied to consumers. In the worst case this can take the form of passing all the risk and cost onto consumers who cannot handle this. This is particularly pernicious for HVAC, because during outages this puts consumers in the un-enviable position of deciding between their savings and not freezing/boiling to death.

Some loads can be moved, such as ev charging, but others cannot. The issue is that a lot of consumer load is less shiftable than you suppose. House heating (presumably we’d electrify this, because global warming) cannot be deferred for too long, and most households go through a hot water tank a day. These loads can be deferred for short periods of time, but proposing that people go without hot water or temperature control for even moderate periods of time is a political non starter. From an infrastructure standpoint it’s also worth mentioning how many people die and how many buildings get ruined by even a few days without power during severe weather events, which is often exactly when prices would rise.

A holistic view of the situation shows that while there is some smart grid stuff we can do, we still need to provide a guaranteed minimum worth of power generation no matter what. Ideally this would come from grid level storage so that we can run everything off renewables, but we’re just not there yet. The reality is that until we get there, the choice is between nuclear power and some other form of fossil fuel, typically natural gas. I think on the whole we’d be well served to commission one last set of nuclear power plants to get us through this crisis, and plan on decommissioning them in 2050 or so once grid level storage makes them obsolete.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#193
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Former Chancellor Gerhard Schroder oversaw the shutdown of Germany's nukes. This is incorrect. Germany decided to phase out nuclear power after the Fukushima desaster. This was well into Merkels's chancellorship, and there are still nuclear power plants.

No, parent is correct. The Atomausstieg was initiated under Schroeder's chancellorship. See for example Wikipedia if you doubt it.

Both are correct actually: Schröder's Social Democrat/Green government first decided to phase out nuclear in 2002, then Merkel's Christian Democrat/Liberal coalition (partly) rolled that back in 2010, only to change their mind in 2011 after Fukushima...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#194
post #167
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but does night time in Germany sometimes exceed four hours?

Perhaps, but wind power also tends to peak at night.

Wind speeds near the ground peak in the early afternoon. Higher altitude winds peak at night, but you need quite a large turbine to catch those. Sometimes there's no wind for days at a time.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/27/11/jcli-d...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let us not submit to the vile doctrine of the nineteenth century that every enterprise must justify itself in pounds, shillings and pence of cash income … Why should we not add in every substantial city the dignity of an ancient university or a European capital … an ample theater, a concert hall, a dance hall, a gallery, cafes, and so forth. Assuredly we can afford this and so much more. Anything we can actually do…

Are you saying we should ignore the economic aspect of everything?

Considering this came from an economist, obviously not. Just that we've been doing it wrong.

(Consider this year's Nobel, awarded to people who demonstrated....we were doing it wrong.)

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#196
It may be pragmatic - but politically tough - to keep the nuclear plants open longer, if that can be done safely, and invest heavily in renewables + storage to take all that awful lignite/coal power generation offline. And phase out the nuclear plants once enough (storage) capacity has been built.

I wonder if people have modeled for how fast that could be done, and how expensive it would be. We have the technology (cf. grid scale storage, there is a fascination array of options, several of which are tried and tested), it's "just" a matter of scaling it up.

The current plan only phases out coal by 2038 which seems... way way way too late. Cf. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/spelling-out-coal...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wind also ceases to exist at night right?

I think you’re being glib, but the issue is that you can’t guarantee the alignment of sun and wind to match demand. Sometimes the wind blows at night, yes, but sometimes it does not. On a pure renewable grid, no wind at night means rolling brownouts or blackouts. This is particularly problematic during the summer when people want to run AC in order to sleep, and will also be an issue when people move to electric heat…

> we’re not there yet.

The UK power grid has pumped hydro storage for decades to handle a huge tick in power demand every time the BBC goes to commercial break during a very popular program, as everyone simultaneously goes to make a cup of tea with their several-kilowatt electric kettle.

> Right now the choice is between a nuclear power plant during these moments, or a natural gas one.

False dilemma. You left out energy storage, of which there are multiple proven technologies.

Iron chemistry batteries are looking like the biggest win. Non-toxic, cheap, simple, easily scaled, easy to build and maintain, and the materials needed are bountiful...and there are working production systems right now.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can also use real time price mechanism to match demand with supply intra day, energy intensive loads like water/home heating and ev charging can cheaply (vs cost of batteries connected to grid) buffer many hours without issue.

A well insulated modern construction can hold a temperature for a long time. Heating and cooling during energy availability and using your insulated building as a thermal battery of sorts is a real thing, and should be I think considered part of the solution here.

Yes, it should. But this drives up the cost of new housing when we’re already struggling to produce enough housing of any quality. As always, these things come with trade offs.

(For the record my house is very well insulated because I agree with you emphatically, but I also recognize that I have the material means to afford that insulation/construction cost that not everyone else is able to)

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#199
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergen... "To date, there is no evidence that the reactor accident has caused adverse health effects due to radiation in Germany."

A lot of the fallout on land in Western Europe was in Scandinavia and Austria due to the prevailing winds and the places where clouds happened to precipitate into rain. In some regions they are still today monitoring the cesium content of grass and moss, and bringing sheep and reindeer in for the weeks before slaughter to be fed hay from other regions to ensure the meat is within acceptable dose limits. Edit - link t…

This. That map explains why so many people people are afraid of nuclear.

In 1986 one plant had a major accident, and look at all that contamination across western and northern Europe, thousands of kilometers away. Hundreds of millions of people were affected, and the consequences are still quite real, 35 years later.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear was also promoted as save decades before Chernobyl and Fukushima by the lobbies. So is there a guarantee that it is safe this time around?

To a first approximation, Fukushima did not cause any harm. I view the plant iself as a success story, given ancient reactor design etc. etc. I think a lot of half-paying-attention people confused the reactor and the tsunami. Of course the news coverage and in-hindsight-unnecessary evacuation didn't help either.

'Not any harm' is quite a cynic formulation. Maybe a couple of hundred deaths seems relatively few, for such an enormous event. But the impact the event had on Japan, their economy and their mental state, was obviosly the worst since WW2.

And Fukushima is still not under control.

https://apnews.com/article/world-news-japan-tsunamis-5a5a70d...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-nuclear-idUSKCN11D0...

Post reply on HN