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Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

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171–180 of 399 posts

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re being glib, but the issue is that you can’t guarantee the alignment of sun and wind to match demand. Sometimes the wind blows at night, yes, but sometimes it does not. On a pure renewable grid, no wind at night means rolling brownouts or blackouts. This is particularly problematic during the summer when people want to run AC in order to sleep, and will also be an issue when people move to electric heat…

We can also use real time price mechanism to match demand with supply intra day, energy intensive loads like water/home heating and ev charging can cheaply (vs cost of batteries connected to grid) buffer many hours without issue.

In cold and hot places, you cannot easily buffer heating and AC for hours.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#172
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that you are confusing system costs and levelized costs of electricity. Cheap wind and solar electricity is absolutely useless if it cannot be produced on demand. Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. The kWh costs 30 cents in Germany, but 15 cents in France.

> Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. When the plant is not offline…

When is it offline? A few days (or weeks) every 12-24 months?

I don't think it's a major problem with a network of nuclear plants, you can plan the fuel replacement and have a steady power supply (nationwide). You can control when the downtime happens, unlike in other power sources.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#173
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. When the plant is not offline…

Can't a nuclear energy plant run continuously? (Genuinely asking.)

They must be shutdown to be refueled regularly, but it can be planned for.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current wholesale electricity prices in Germany are $194/MWh: https://www.energylive.cloud/ How much does Germany spend on the military? Cancel it, and spend the money on nuclear power. Otherwise Germany has a significant strategic weakness (gas imports) to Russia, its only realistic enemy.

I don't think canceling an already tight military budget in favor of a power source that could be devastating when hit by an airstrike is a good strategy

it wouldn't be devastating

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#175

It's worth noting that nuclear is really expensive when factoring in insurance and disposable, a lot more so than wind and solar. >The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nucle...

Cost is irrelevant if you can’t store the energy generated. Nuclear is predictable and carbon free. Look at France.

Nuclear is massive-grid-scale base load only in a world that does not need more base load nor massive grid-scale generation. Everything about nuclear is slow, difficult, expensive, dangerous. They are increasingly not handling climate change well. They are decade-scale projects that take a long, long time to become carbon neutral; we cannot wait that long.

* Solar and wind are here to stay and they mean we need fast-reacting spare capacity and storage. Nuclear power plants are very slow to react and because they are so monumentally expensive they have to run at as high capacity as possible, as much as possible. They are strictly base load.

* Siting a nuclear power plant is very difficult just in terms of geology. Siting a nuclear power plant is very difficult grid-wise as well, because they are only cost-effective at massive scale. Super-high-voltage DC transmission systems can help, but they only tack on more to the project cost. You can't just inject gigawatts of power anywhere you want. And it isn't just injection that is the problem. Nuclear power plants that are not producing power need massive amounts of electricity to get things like cooling pumps running or keep them running until everything is up to temperature and you can get the turbines up to temperature and speed. Then there's the matter of needing sufficient cooling - usually done via river, ocean, or lake. Except climate change and other factors are making those sources of cooling increasingly unreliable (for example: invasive species like zebra mussels have made life hell for a lot of power plants)

* Nuclear power plants require lots of highly trained people to design, operate, and maintain. More power plants means more of them. Training them up isn't a short term affair. Solar and wind require far less of all of this. And frankly, I have serious doubts about societal stability in 20-30 years, and nuclear power plants are not even remotely friendly to any sort of societal instability. Not just in terms of security, but upkeep. They have very complex, deep supply chain needs.

* Building nuclear power plants from the start of planning to grid synchronization takes a decade or two, and it then takes another decade or so for the plant to become carbon-neutral in part due to the massive amount of concrete they require. Right now, we need to be reducing carbon footprint as much as possible, as fast as possible. Not causing huge increases in carbon footprint that will only balance out well past catastrophic climate conditions.

* Nuclear reactor containment vessels can only be constructed by a small handful of facilities and their capacity is very limited, and by and large already spoken for. We can't just wave a wand and start building more reactors tomorrow. Or even in the next several years.

* Nuclear waste may be a "solved" problem tech-wise as nuclear power proponents are fond of saying, but reality is that nuclear waste is a huge problem. Even short-term storage is a problem, as demonstrated, again, by Fukashima where fuel cooling ponds caught on fire.

Time and time again we demonstrate that we are not responsible enough to handle nuclear power; we've had numerous military nuclear power disasters; the commercial ones haven't stopped, either. A "1st world" country, arguably one of the most technologically advanced ones around, repeatedly bumbled every aspect of Fukashima, starting with the plant's design, its maintenance and procedures, and the response to the incident. What was Japan's excuse?

How many Mulligans does nuclear power need?

You know what happens when a solar or wind power plant is incompetently designed or run? A bunch of people lose lots of money. You don't end up with thousands of square miles of land uninhabitable. You don't need people with years of training supervising a bunch of solar panels. Maintenance on a wind turbine is a standard-industrial-equipment sort of job, no bunny suits required.

You know what happens when a country with solar or wind power has a government that is full of incompetent suit-stuffing chair-warming morons, or gets taken over by a despot dictator, or has an economic collapse? Nothing.

If you want to look to the future in power grids, look at the iron chemistry liquid batteries that are non-toxic and almost trivial to deploy at electrical substations. They can provide spare capacity at the neighborhood/regional level while helping balance distribution loads and allow those neighborhoods to continue to function in isolation in the event of transmission grid problems.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#176
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that you are confusing system costs and levelized costs of electricity. Cheap wind and solar electricity is absolutely useless if it cannot be produced on demand. Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. The kWh costs 30 cents in Germany, but 15 cents in France.

> Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. When the plant is not offline…

Obviously the grid needs to have a fleet of base load plants large enough that some can be periodically taken offline for maintenance. This is understood by everyone familiar with the issue and we shouldn't have to keep repeating it. Maintenance schedules also apply to every other type of power plant capable of handling base load.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#177
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can also use real time price mechanism to match demand with supply intra day, energy intensive loads like water/home heating and ev charging can cheaply (vs cost of batteries connected to grid) buffer many hours without issue.

In cold and hot places, you cannot easily buffer heating and AC for hours.

You can if you have decent insulation (which at least cold climates do). In fact people historically have taken advantage of cheaper night time electricity prices to shift heating to night time. Better insulation will become a more attractive investment than in the past.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#178

It's worth noting that nuclear is really expensive when factoring in insurance and disposable, a lot more so than wind and solar. >The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nucle...

The expensive part about nuclear power is the initial construction. The cost to keep a reactor that's already been built going is low.

Time component can’t be disregarded, though. You can build, operate and decommission a wind farm or a solar plant in the time it takes to sell the first watt from a nuclear plant.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#179
post #125

One generally underappreciated aspect to nuclear energy opposition is the intrinsic link to nuclear weapons. Some of it is scientifically illiterate nonsense (a lot of people seem to think power reactors can have a nuclear explosion). And some of it is just historical association. But some of it is a lot harder to dismiss. A world without nuclear reactors or enrichment facilities is a world without nuclear weapons. A…

Nuclear Enrichment is kind of hard actually. Nobody's going to get away with it without others knowing.

The risk if Nuclear Energy proliferation is the waste being used in a dirty bomb.

Nuclear waste spread out in Manhtatten might not kill people, but it could make the city, or parts of it unlivable for a long time. At minimum a big disaster.

So in order for the Nuclear future to work, we'd need to set standards that have teeth.

The issue is not Canada or Germany, it's Venezuela or Colombia where there is corruption, political instability, lack of oversight, and then a local antagonist can sneak in and grab materials. Cover ups, finger pointing, refusing to allow inspectors in lest they assess the level of corruption, it all falls down while the baddies take their stolen gear to other, more ideological bad actors.

There are long term storage issues but I think those can be worked out.

Nuclear Energy is basically free Energy to any group of people civil enough to manage it.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#180
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. When the plant is not offline…

Can't a nuclear energy plant run continuously? (Genuinely asking.)

Refueling usually takes a long time, minimum three weeks, and a month is common:

https://www.outagecalendar.com/

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