Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online • Hacker News Board

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#131

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

goodpoint wrote: post #54

tscherno wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear was also promoted as save decades before Chernobyl and Fukushima by the lobbies. So is there a guarantee that it is safe this time around?

It's not just a matter of safety of the plans themselves. You need safety against external threats e.g. a nuclear plant can be targeted during war or by terrorists You need safety around illegal dumping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste#Illegal_dump... Also, extremely centralized energy production creates political risks (coups, corruption, hiding mismanagement) Nuclear proliferation risk. Investment ri…

You have the same considerations with coal waste as well.

>https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article24874...

Look at how many coal ash spills there have been...and those come with nice forever things like mercury.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#132

Post by dahfizz » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

loeg wrote: post #111

Gwypaas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar + 4 hours of storage clocking in at $40/MWh in ideal conditions. Substitute for windpower and some worse conditions and nuclear energy still look awful from a cost perspective. https://www.energy-storage.news/developer-8minute-says-more-...

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but does night time in Germany sometimes exceed four hours?

Yeah, people really underestimate the scale of the storage problem for solar. Energy usage peaks around 6pm[1], while the amount of energy solar can produce is trending towards zero. Without significant storage capability (i.e. enough to supply ~a days electricity), solar energy has a pretty limited use case in a real-time electric grid.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#133

Post by eecc » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #121

schleck8 wrote: post #59

It's worth noting that nuclear is really expensive when factoring in insurance and disposable, a lot more so than wind and solar. >The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nucle...

It’s worth noting that you are confusing system costs and levelized costs of electricity. Cheap wind and solar electricity is absolutely useless if it cannot be produced on demand. Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required. The kWh costs 30 cents in Germany, but 15 cents in France.

> Nuclear produces electricity 24/7, independent of weather with no backup required.

When the plant is not offline…

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#134

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #18

mistrial9 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very outdated information no rush on that -- we have another 21,000 years of half-life to talk about it, right?

Outdated information is quite relevant for nuclear power plants. Fukushima was older than Chernobyl. Every time someone tells me how safe modern power plants are I think "great, now get rid of all the old ones".

Great, nuclear advocates agree! Let's build more, new nuclear plants so the old ones can be retired.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#135

Post by loeg » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #128

Gwypaas wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wind also ceases to exist at night right?

I think you’re being glib, but the issue is that you can’t guarantee the alignment of sun and wind to match demand. Sometimes the wind blows at night, yes, but sometimes it does not. On a pure renewable grid, no wind at night means rolling brownouts or blackouts. This is particularly problematic during the summer when people want to run AC in order to sleep, and will also be an issue when people move to electric heat…

> Right now the choice is between a nuclear power plant during these moments, or a natural gas one.

Well, gas and coal. Germany is still ~26% coal in 2021[1].

Edit: Maybe 50% coal if you look at consumption, not just generation, per 'incrudible[2].

[1]: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... (Lignite is a kind of coal)

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28857398

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#136

Post by bananabreakfast » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

step21 wrote: post #89

Ericson2314 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a first approximation, Fukushima did not cause any harm. I view the plant iself as a success story, given ancient reactor design etc. etc. I think a lot of half-paying-attention people confused the reactor and the tsunami. Of course the news coverage and in-hindsight-unnecessary evacuation didn't help either.

"did not cause any harm" - for a very loose defintion of harm. Sure it could have been much worse. But enough ground and water was contaminated, and much more will be in the future when they run out of storage.

and who has actually been directly affected by this? I think it's your definition of harm that is too loose and overly inclusive.

Your average oil spill does 100x more damage to the ecosystem and economy than fukushima

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#137

Post by Ericson2314 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

Neverminding the politics and legalities, is it technically possible to "un-decommision" the plants already closed? Or our too many blueprints lost, people retired, etc.?

Forgive the optimism, just trying to think ahead.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#138

Post by odiroot » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #58

Factorium wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41447603 Former Chancellor Gerhard Schroder oversaw the shutdown of Germany's nukes. Now he's on the board of Rosneft, a giant fossil fuel company controlled by the Russian Government.

Ha, and people keep saying there's no corruption in Germany.

There is. Just at very high level with very high stakes. It'd probably be impossible to bribe a random cop or government clerk though.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#139

Post by xg15 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #53

xg15 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here. I can't really compare the viewpoints, but historically, the anti-nuclear movement has been an integral part of the german civil rights movement in the 60s and 70s. [1] I believe there have been two key events which have influenced this: - Chernobyl. Being in close proximity, the event had a far stronger impact than in the US: There was widespread contamination from fallout drifting over from Ukraine and…

Hi, what's the general population's stance on Belgian nuclear plants ?

I don't know much about it, but from what I know, not very positive. There are worries about the age and general state of the reactors, in particular Tihange [1]. Apparently there had been various worrying incidents in the past, which eventually led to an ECJ lawsuit of neighboring german cities against the plant's operators [2].

There is also a popular sentiment in eco/progressive circles that the german phase-out of nuclear is to an extent hypocritical - because germany will keep consuming nuclear energy through belgian and french reactors.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihange_Nuclear_Power_Station

[2] https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/german-city-aachen-sue-belgian-nuc...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#140

Post by aagd » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #105

aagd wrote: post #104

The view I share with a majority of Germans: Costs of nuclear energy are very much a burden that future generations will have to carry. A hundered thousand years of safe storage is not part of the calculation of the energy price. It is also clear now that the the companies running the plants will not pay for the deconstruction of the plants after they reached their end of life. Tax payers have to pay for this, and a…

The Germans have switched from nuclear to coal. Can you cut this "future generations are going to have to carry the cost" when the alternative is literally helping destroy the whole planet's ecosystems? Not to mention they spew up significantly more radioactivity in the air than nuclear powerplants. A 30x30m pool of radioactive fuel is nothing compared to what their powerplants are doing to the future of young genera…

In Germany renewables are at over 42% in 2021, despite a 'conservative' government that for decades has blocked the development of windfarms and solar for the benefit of the coal and nuclear lobby. That kind of lobby-work is the actual problem here. The way forward is renewable energy. The huge difference is that the source of renewable energy is free and basically limitless.