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Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

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Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#11
post #10

For anybody who thinks that prisoners perhaps deserve to have their organs harvested (a comment to that effect popped up and then promptly disappeared here), there are at least two things worth considering: 1. As is clearly stated in the article, this includes political prisoners and prisoners of conscience, such as (but not at all limited to) Falun Gong. 2. Even if the state had the best of intentions (and it clearl…

The comment is still there, enable "showdead" in the settings to see it.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#12

Personally, I think that the ethical aspects of harvesting organs from people sentenced to death are open to discussion. If society finds it acceptable to put people to death for a number of serious crimes then it may also be felt acceptable to 'get some good out of it' by saving others' lives. In any case, one aspect is that this may provide an incentive to sentence people to death because organs are needed...

a country can decide to impose the death penalty for many reasons that would objectionable for people outside of that country. Plenty of examples in the 20th century.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#13

I wonder if western media will bash communist china for this egregious behavior From a collectivist point of view it makes total sense to overrule the individual rights not to donate organs for the "greater good"

Just label them 'donation-hesitant'.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#14

Personally, I think that the ethical aspects of harvesting organs from people sentenced to death are open to discussion. If society finds it acceptable to put people to death for a number of serious crimes then it may also be felt acceptable to 'get some good out of it' by saving others' lives. In any case, one aspect is that this may provide an incentive to sentence people to death because organs are needed...

In the future portrayed in Larry Niven's "Known Space" science fiction stories, the demand for transplanted organs became so large that even jaywalking became a capital crime.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#15

I have a few questions on this: - If the family of the prisoner consents, then would it be ok? - If they are going to do it anyway.Wouldn't be better that they share the research with the world? I understand that it has to do with human dignity and rights, etc. But I always assumed that here in the US you get your organs taken off(I'm aware of the mark on the DL) anyway, when you die in an accident, etc. Do the famil…

No, it wouldn't be OK by international governing standards. Ethical Rules are very strict and explicit prisoner "consent" is one of these areas. The other thing is that the donor numbers china is presenting to the medical community don't make statistically much sense except if you have a huge population of non-consenting prisoners. Which is also the reason why china is banned from many international donor programs.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#16
post #12

Personally, I think that the ethical aspects of harvesting organs from people sentenced to death are open to discussion. If society finds it acceptable to put people to death for a number of serious crimes then it may also be felt acceptable to 'get some good out of it' by saving others' lives. In any case, one aspect is that this may provide an incentive to sentence people to death because organs are needed...

a country can decide to impose the death penalty for many reasons that would objectionable for people outside of that country. Plenty of examples in the 20th century.

Agreed, but I don't think this is relevant.

The death sentence part is indeed the potentially scandalous part, and the biggest ethical and moral dilemma, either in general or because if the offense that carries it depending on people's opinions. The (lesser, IMHO) ethical issue here arises after that although one aspect is the incentive this creates, as already mentioned.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#17

I have a few questions on this: - If the family of the prisoner consents, then would it be ok? - If they are going to do it anyway.Wouldn't be better that they share the research with the world? I understand that it has to do with human dignity and rights, etc. But I always assumed that here in the US you get your organs taken off(I'm aware of the mark on the DL) anyway, when you die in an accident, etc. Do the famil…

From what I remember from Human Subjects training in my grad school days, the prison environment is considered to be so coercive that it pretty much makes "informed consent" unobtainable. While some studies are still done on prisoners, the bar to getting such a study approved is very high (or at least, is supposed to be very high).

There have been indeed cases where organs were harvested without permission (not just from prisoners, either). The difference is that in the United States (and almost all other countries) this is considered to be a crime, and you go to jail if you get caught doing it.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#18

It is my understanding that US prisoners are not able to donate blood. The prison population is considered to have too high a level of drug use and other red flags to be a safe source for blood donation. So even if we set aside the entire human rights/consent issue, this seems like a dangerous medical practice for those receiving the organs.

The sort of person sitting in US prisons is very different from those in Chinese ones.

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#19

I have a few questions on this: - If the family of the prisoner consents, then would it be ok? - If they are going to do it anyway.Wouldn't be better that they share the research with the world? I understand that it has to do with human dignity and rights, etc. But I always assumed that here in the US you get your organs taken off(I'm aware of the mark on the DL) anyway, when you die in an accident, etc. Do the famil…

> If they are going to do it anyway. Wouldn't be better that they share the research with the world?

There’s precedent already that these types of things are inhumane and the data shouldn’t be used strictly based on the ethics of it. One example includes experiments done by Nazi Germany in the 1940s[0].

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Re: Nonconsenting prisoners are the source of many organ transplantations in China

#20
post #15

I have a few questions on this: - If the family of the prisoner consents, then would it be ok? - If they are going to do it anyway.Wouldn't be better that they share the research with the world? I understand that it has to do with human dignity and rights, etc. But I always assumed that here in the US you get your organs taken off(I'm aware of the mark on the DL) anyway, when you die in an accident, etc. Do the famil…

No, it wouldn't be OK by international governing standards. Ethical Rules are very strict and explicit prisoner "consent" is one of these areas. The other thing is that the donor numbers china is presenting to the medical community don't make statistically much sense except if you have a huge population of non-consenting prisoners. Which is also the reason why china is banned from many international donor programs.

Considering that a number of Western countries have moved to "deemed consent" when it comes to organ harvesting I don't think that the absence of explicit consent is the sticking point. Rather, I think the ethical issue is ignoring explicit refusal.
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