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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#711

Post by nuerow »

raxxorrax wrote: post #709
nuerow wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is a lot of rationalization you had to go through for that judgement. I think it is a ridiculous excuse. You need to be deep in denial and very disingenuous to refute the nature of /r/HermanCainAward or even /r/LeopardsAteMyFace. You're talking about a very niche subreddit which is dedicated to posts on radical and very vocal anti-mask/anti-vax/Covid-hoax militants views who, after a long and well documented p…

I disagree. Perhaps not specifically these subs but the sentiment certainly involuntarily spreads opposition and one main purpose of subs like these is to have something to feel superior about. There are many like that, maybe these aren't the worst offenders. I enjoy some of those myself from time to time, but it is what it is and has nothing to do with education and is more focused on self gratification. Just enjoy…

> I disagree. Perhaps not specifically these subs but the sentiment certainly involuntarily spreads opposition and one main purpose of subs like these is to have something to feel superior about.

No, that's not really true at all. For a clear example, here's a link to a post from /r/HermanCainAward that popped up in /r/popular right now

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/q701sk/tir...

Every single time I stumbled upon a post from /r/HermanCainAward in /r/popular, the theme has always been the same. It's pretty much a one-trick subreddit.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#712

Post by paul_f »

cjsplat wrote: post #378
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

> there was never data that said "masks don't work for the public" Actually there was plenty of data saying that masks don't work for the public. For example, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... And there are many others - that was just an easy one I found today. Some similar studies even showed an increase in flu transmission among the subject population wearing masks. There were plenty o…

If masks worked effectively, it would be quite simple to find a strong correlation between cases and areas with lax mask usage. Instead it is all over the map (pun intended).

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#713

Post by anotherevan »

greenail wrote: post #148

While this thread is mostly a US centric discussion I wonder if Australia isn't a better case study for this topic. Seems like things are pretty intense there.

From Melbourne, in the state of Victoria, Australia here. Currently in lockdown again. Last year, when there where huge amounts of unknown unknowns, our state premier stood up and did a press conference every day for 120 days straight. Every day of the week. In every one he stayed for as long as journalists and Murdoch media employees kept asking questions.

He did quite a good job of explaining the reasoning behind decisions (IMO). The answers stayed consistent when asked eight different ways in a row, and from day to day. Decisions were following the science (like wearing masks is effective as reducing the amount of infections from an air-born pathogen, duh) and the counsel of the chief health officer (among many others, I'm sure).

There are still daily press conferences going on, although they've mixed it up a bit with who is available - usually between the premier, the health minister, the chief health officer and a few others.

We were successful in reducing community transmission to zero last year, and even beating back an initial outbreak of the Delta strain before it surged back and dug in roots. It required a huge effort of societal and political will and cooperation to achieve.

We are now relying on vaccination to open back up. (Unfortunately Australia has been a bit slow off the mark with vaccinations, in part because we managed to have such low infection rates. In part...)

The two main milestones in our staged open up are when 70% and then 80% of the population aged 16 and above have been fully vaccinated (two doses). At current vaccination rates we are looking to hit those milestones in Victoria on Oct 22 and Nov 1 respectively[1].

As of today[0], 73% of the total Victorian population have received at least one vaccination, and 50% fully vaccinated with two doses[2]. Of those who can avail themselves of a vaccine (those aged 12 or above) those numbers go up to 85% and almost 59%.

Currently we have vaccines approved for use for people aged 12 and above. (Provisional approval for Pfizer for ages five to eleven happened today, however that will take some time pass through the various bureaucracies before doses start going into arms).

[0] Wed 13 Oct 2021

[1] https://covidlive.com.au/vic

[2] https://covidbaseau.com/vaccinations/

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#714

Post by paul_f »

kcplate wrote: post #654
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, people who have problems with dynamic situations (e.g. best practices continually changing via new information coming in) have had real problems with this pandemic. They wanted a static stable unchanging story from the onset, and were very disappointed and anxious when they didn't get that. But everything you’ve written above is simply condemning authorities because they didn’t have the best solution from the ons…

This wasn’t an evolutionary change of best practices. This was waffling from one extreme to another, then back again. When you do that, people will lose confidence in leadership. Everything I wrote above condemns authorities not because they didn’t have the best solution from the start, but by all appearances never had a solution at all. Additionally, one party by my observation spent more time trying to exploit the…

Exactly. The CDC went from masks don't work, to everyone wear masks, to no masks if vaccinated, to wear a mask even if vaccinated. In 18 months.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#715

Post by roenxi »

nuerow wrote: post #710
roenxi wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is a world where a ~66% majority (if that) can override the remainder on their medical decisions - which is about as personal as decisions can get. The "force them to do what I say" approach will cause more damage the more effective it is. If this is an option for vaccines, there are a lot of things out there that are more important than COVID.

> The alternative is a world where a ~66% majority (if that) can override the remainder on their medical decisions - which is about as personal as decisions can get. I'm sure that those who repeat the "rights and freedom" mantra are also aware that there is a tradeoff between individual freedom and the ability to live in a free society, which requires tradeoffs between your own personal freedom and the individual fre…

> Your argument is actually not about freedom at all, but about exceptionalism, entitlements, and excluding yourself from any responsibility or duty towards ensuring that the priviledges you enjoy are also made available to others.

The technical term I prefer is "basic human rights". Like right to work, right to freedom of movement, right to associate, etc, etc. That might be a bit entitled I suppose.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#716

Post by viridian »

nuerow wrote: post #646
throw_nbvc1234 wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

If anything, the Herman Cain Award is a place to vent frustration about the wave of reckless and irresponsible behavior perpetrated by a largely uninformed/disinformed segment of the population which happens to also be highly vocal and even militant regarding their personal ill-informed beliefs. The Herman Cain Award focuses mainly on reporting cases of individuals who are eggregiously contrarian and even hostile in…

If you would like, I can pull upvoted comments from the subreddit where people are bathing in the catharsis of their dead political enemies.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#717

Post by jjgreen »

Natsu wrote: post #532
jjgreen wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, "helping people comply with rules" and "just follow the rules" are pretty much synonymous.

Properly understood, they're on opposite sides of the equation and as mentioned, I'd prefer not to do any punishment at all, because I feel like that cuts off most of the nonsense. So that means giving people masks if they don't have one or making reasonable accommodations where possible and making interventions about safety. But I know it's not quite so easy and especially now a lot of people are hardened and less w…

"Prefer" is pretty woolly, what happens when push comes to shove? "Well thank you for offering me that mask, but masks simply don't work" [hands you a copy of the DANMASK19 paper]. Do you punish the person why defies you or not?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#718

Post by paul_f »

Jensson wrote: post #342
hackingforfun wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so I understand, the one thing about flip flopping on masks cost them to lose faith in all medical experts? Doesn't that seem a little unreasonable? I agree we shouldn't have flip flopped on masks, but I don't think making a whole narrative out of that makes sense.

> Just so I understand, the one thing about flip flopping on masks cost them to lose faith in all medical experts? Doesn't that seem a little unreasonable? Have you never heard of racism, bias etc? Yes, when a representative for a group does something then that will affect peoples views of that entire group and not just that person. Humans are irrational like that.

We were told that Fauci and the CDC speak for the medical establishment. And that if you disagree with them you were anti-science, and Google/Twitter/Facebook would censor you. I still trust my doctor, I long ago stopped trusting the political "doctors."

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#719

Post by tinus_hn »

post_from_work wrote: post #555
spookthesunset wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not always wear a mask? Why have we decided this one specific illness deserves this level of “safety”?

>>>Why not always wear a mask? Facemask usage has been common in Asia, I think largely due to SARS ( I didn't live here back when that kicked off). It's normal for customer service staff to wear masks even if they just have a mild sniffle/headcold. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-shocked/2020...

Yeah, I remember the stories about how covid was under control in Japan because of the masks. Until it was out of control, of course.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#720

Post by native_samples »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617
kcplate wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closing borders is racist. Two weeks to flatten the curve. Don’t mask. Mask. Stay Inside. Trump didn’t close the borders fast enough! Double mask. Protest crowds are not superspreaders. Trump Rallies are superspreaders. School is dangerous, distance learning is good. Go outside, inside is bad. Dems-don’t trust Trump Vaccines. Biden/Pelosi - we can’t mandate vaccination. Dems-you must trust our vaccines, they are effe…

Ya, people who have problems with dynamic situations (e.g. best practices continually changing via new information coming in) have had real problems with this pandemic. They wanted a static stable unchanging story from the onset, and were very disappointed and anxious when they didn't get that. But everything you’ve written above is simply condemning authorities because they didn’t have the best solution from the ons…

The changes above weren't caused by "best practices changing via new information", they were caused by political and ideological imperatives.

I mean, seriously. Protests are incredibly deadly. Not BLM protests, those are fine. No, now BLM has run its course protests are illegal again. Obviously that isn't anything based on "new information", and nor have the other changes been so motivated.

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