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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#361

Post by nradov »

djrogers wrote: post #98
betterunix2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...are you not counting HIV as a recent major pandemic? SARS? MERS? It is also worth remembering that for decades we have been carefully monitoring the spread of infectious diseases to prevent major pandemics from forming. There was no political controversy surrounding those efforts prior to COVID19, not in the US or anywhere else.

None of those have had the global impact of COVID-19, so it think it's pretty easy to not count them as on the same level.

Compared to COVID-19, HIV/AIDS has killed far more people worldwide and has an untreated fatality rate orders of magnitude higher. But it spreads and progresses more slowly so it seems less dramatic.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#362

Post by yCombLinks »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

> the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust What are examples of this? Most of the U.S. was quite loose about lockdowns and mask requirements until their specific geography got hit. (For example, I summered in the Smoky Mountains June of 2020. Compared to New York, it was as if nothing had happened. The tone changed by December, after the South h…

An example that jumps to mind is all of the media and academics that opposed the theory that the virus was a lab leak in china, primarily because Trump espoused the view. As much as Trump deserved ridicule, that was a perfectly valid theory.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#363

Post by wonderwonder »

hintymad wrote: post #319
wonderwonder wrote: post #26

The author is completely right in that the government at least in the US attempting to downplay, mislead or 'avoid panic' absolutely destroyed any credibility and is still suffering from it. Most people are not stupid, if provided with all available information as well as clear statements regarding the reliability of that information and just a clear message saying "hey this is new and we have no idea, we are making…

Most people are not stupid, but unfortunately in the US many issues are moralized to the point that people have a hard time discussing them rationally. You question Fauci? You're an anti-science freak. You question CDC's decision? You're a Trump supporter. You ask how CDC's numbers lead to certain decisions? You're a racist. I really wish people do not attack one's motives and focus on discussing facts.

People in the US have become very good at totally ignoring the argument and just tribalizing the approach to everything. X must be right and how dare you question them as they are part of us. Nothing can be nuanced anymore. Read a twitter thread this morning discussing a father whose daughter was raped in a high school bathroom and then the perpetrator who they did not really make clear if it was someone that was trans or just a guy in a skirt was transferred to another school while pending trial and then assualted another girl. Father was obviously against trans women in the girls bathroom after that and was arrested for disturbing the peace. Crazy thing was people in the thread were more upset if someone misgendered the perpetrator than the fact that they raped 2 kids. I say this as someone that truly believes that people should be left alone to live however they want with out judgment. We live in strange times.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#364

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #207
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the risks of not getting the vaccine are orders of magnitude higher than the risks of getting the vaccine. It's absolutely insane that were still having this conversation at this point.

But, see, people don't work that way. If you say that the risk of dying from Covid is 1%, and the risk from the vaccine is 0.001%, (at least some) people can look at those numbers and figure out what's reasonable to do. But if you say that the risk from Covid is 1% and the vaccine is "safe", then people think you mean the risk from the vaccine is 0, and they say, "You're lying; my cousin's co-worker's nephew got sick…

If you go to the CDC website about the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine,[1] there's a banner at the top of the page about myocarditis. Later down the page, there are sections titled "Who Should Get Vaccinated," "Who Should NOT Get Vaccinated" and "Possible Side Effects." None of this has been covered up.

I don't think the public health authorities are to blame here. I would blame the politicians and media figures who have discovered that being anti-vax or vaccine "skeptical" boosts their popularity.

1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#365

Post by colpabar »

hackingforfun wrote: post #347
speedybird wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to lose trust than it is to earn it. Lie just once and you can wipe out years of hard-won good will. Isn't it a bit unreasonable to lie but expect people to still trust you as they did before? This is not some new premise that the authorities got blindsided by; Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They should have known better than to lie, no matter the motivation for a lie.

I saw the flip flopping on masks and thought it was silly for them to do that. However, I also was not going to not get the COVID shot over that, because, based on my own assessment, getting the shot made sense. Anyway, I'm just surprised a whole narrative was built around something I would consider really not a huge deal. Folks could buy masks anyway, even without them being recommended (I did). It's not like masks…

> Folks could buy masks anyway

They couldn't for a while though, and that's an aspect of the whole fiasco that really bugged me personally. The initial claim was that we do not need masks, because they are not effective and because if we all buy them then hospitals will run out, so I did not buy any. Then, we were told that we all must wear masks, and there were none available. I was re-using a disposable mask for several days at a time because I had no idea where to get them. It was really frustrating to see wealthy politicians and celebrities telling everyone to "just wear your mask!" because the rest of us could not find any to wear.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#366

Post by sandos »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

Its funny with this mask thing. In Sweden we never had very wide mask usage, and I'm not sure what our "CDC" is saying about masks now, but I still think they are very sceptical tbh.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#367

Post by hackingforfun »

colpabar wrote: post #365
hackingforfun wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw the flip flopping on masks and thought it was silly for them to do that. However, I also was not going to not get the COVID shot over that, because, based on my own assessment, getting the shot made sense. Anyway, I'm just surprised a whole narrative was built around something I would consider really not a huge deal. Folks could buy masks anyway, even without them being recommended (I did). It's not like masks…

> Folks could buy masks anyway They couldn't for a while though, and that's an aspect of the whole fiasco that really bugged me personally. The initial claim was that we do not need masks, because they are not effective and because if we all buy them then hospitals will run out, so I did not buy any. Then, we were told that we all must wear masks, and there were none available. I was re-using a disposable mask for se…

Yeah, fair, I still don't know what them recommending this earlier would've done though. It just would've made the shortage sooner, right? It seems that's what they were trying to prevent. I do get that people don't like that they were lied to though, and then mandates were hard to follow when implemented, if people couldn't acquire masks. The pandemic exposed, and continues to expose, issues with our supply chains. If there was an abundance of masks to start with, I don't think the government would've flip flopped on masks in the first place, but since supplies were what they were, I'm not sure there's a good answer here.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#368

Post by hackingforfun »

speedybird wrote: post #354
hackingforfun wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw the flip flopping on masks and thought it was silly for them to do that. However, I also was not going to not get the COVID shot over that, because, based on my own assessment, getting the shot made sense. Anyway, I'm just surprised a whole narrative was built around something I would consider really not a huge deal. Folks could buy masks anyway, even without them being recommended (I did). It's not like masks…

Different people have different experiences. Different people have different thresholds for trust. Different people have different prior experiences. Some people have witnessed and been harmed by more lies than others. What does or doesn't seem like an overreaction to you, me, or others is going to be different to one degree or another to every individual. What you judge to be a small inconsequential lie may seem lik…

Yeah, based on what you said, I agree it was idiotic. I personally still don't think it's a hill worth dying on though, but that's just my opinion.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#369

Post by bad_username »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

> the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust What are examples of this? Most of the U.S. was quite loose about lockdowns and mask requirements until their specific geography got hit. (For example, I summered in the Smoky Mountains June of 2020. Compared to New York, it was as if nothing had happened. The tone changed by December, after the South h…

Massive, coordinated, media-sponsored mocking of people who discuss Ivermectin, calling them stupid horse paste guzzlers. I don't know if works for covid, but there is enough serious data and published science for a normal conversation to be had about it, instead of disdain, ridicule and suppression.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#370

Post by nobody9999 »

themaninthedark wrote: post #336
nobody9999 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would say it is more the backtracking that caused the distrust. And so, if I say "gravity does not exist" and then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second, that means "the effect we call gravity" doesn't exist? That's a strange way to look at it, IMHO.

If you claim that gravity does not exist, then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second. Then you go and claim that magnetism does not exist, I will probably not believe you.

>If you claim that gravity does not exist, then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second.

>Then you go and claim that magnetism does not exist, I will probably not believe you.

Fair enough. Now apply that reasoning to my original statement.

If public health authorities claim that masks don't work, and that's a lie, then they say they do, that's a lie too?

That's the root of my confusion. Given that those two statements are not just mutually exclusive, but also completely contradictory, they obviously can't both be false.

And as many folks call out the statement about masks not working as a lie, how does it follow that those same people refuse to wear masks because they "distrust" the messenger.

If the messenger is lying about "masks not working," how is it reasonable to reject wearing masks because they lied about masks not working?

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