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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

nature.com

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#291

Post by Jensson »

dominotw wrote: post #271
nielsbot wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…

> The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. Why doesn't everyone see things clearly for what they are. If its obviously 'the plan' .

Because they started labelling such arguments as right/left wing propaganda. Labelling any criticism against you as enemy propaganda is a common strategy in authoritarian regimes, and it works really well as long as you have sowed enough hate against the enemy in people.

So even though the plan might not be obvious to those who live in the authoritarian regime, it is often very obvious for outsiders that for example the democratic peoples republic of Korea isn't really a democratic republic.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#292

Post by [deleted] »

dmingod666 wrote: post #155
gravity13 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there's a difference between a raging narcissist who can't even seem to tell the truth even if there's nothing to gain from lying and listening to a doctor. But yeah, keep going with the whole "democrats are just as bad as republicans" thing. Seems to be working.

Fauci lied about masks at the start of the pandemic -- the whole world knew the size of the virus and the type of mask you need to wear to protect from it. Apparently only Americans had the genius idea to show some research showing masks are bad for you... Trump, Fauci and the whole bunch lying through their teeth and people still take their sides.... my god...

[deleted]

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#293

Post by ssully »

GloriousKoji wrote: post #177
ssully wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's also worth pointing out that even with them saying masks aren't effective for the public, there was still a run on masks. I don't have the exact date, but when I looked for n95's at my local hardware store in March 2020, they were all gone and this was definitely before we were told to wear masks. And soon after we started getting stories about hospitals running low on PPE. I am not saying what the right…

If they were open and upfront about limited masks and reserving N95 and other PPE for healthcare workers there was a possibility of a social stigma of individuals buying up and using N95 and PPE. Like how scalpers get the stink eye and angry stares when they take all the toilet paper, hand sanitizer and disinfectant wipes. Sure the masks might not have all gone to the right place but I imagine it would have been bett…

Doubtful. Just think about the toilet paper shortage; a common household item that never would have had a supply shortage if people just maintained their regular buying patterns.

Now think of masks; a non-household item that a small percentage of households carried. Even if people were reasonable and only bought an amount to cover their needs, that would have introduced hundreds of millions of new buyers for that item.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#294

Post by speedybird »

hackingforfun wrote: post #288
evandwight wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misinterpreting. They lost faith in medical experts. I don't think hes talking about the US system as a whole but instead trusting the advice that vaccines are safe, masks work, etc. Medical advice.

Just so I understand, the one thing about flip flopping on masks cost them to lose faith in all medical experts? Doesn't that seem a little unreasonable? I agree we shouldn't have flip flopped on masks, but I don't think making a whole narrative out of that makes sense.

It's much easier to lose trust than it is to earn it. Lie just once and you can wipe out years of hard-won good will.

Isn't it a bit unreasonable to lie but expect people to still trust you as they did before? This is not some new premise that the authorities got blindsided by; Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They should have known better than to lie, no matter the motivation for a lie.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#295

Post by hackingforfun »

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #290
hackingforfun wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet sick Chinese people were free to spread over the world for months with no response except down-playing it. > When politicians knowingly lie to everyone's faces and take harmful actions against the people, pushing toward a more authoritarian society at every opportunity, how can you have any trust and not wonder about conspiracies? Wouldn't pushing toward a more authoritarian society been not allowing sick Chine…

Doing health checks and restricting foreign nationals arriving from specific high risk areas is not extreme at all, that has been done plenty of times. I don't think it is comparable at all to the unprecedented restrictions that become normal in the last 1-2 years. >Do you think it would have been OK to implement restrictions at the start of the pandemic, just not now? Yes. In the beginning nobody knew how dangerous…

I still think the pandemic should be managed. I agree the world could've done better at the start, but I don't think that nothing should be done now. Just my opinion.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#296

Post by throwaway0a5e »

zarkov99 wrote: post #43
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

It is hard to understate the damage. The loss of national cohesion, the exacerbated division caused by the "choose your own reality" consequences of no longer having trustworthy institutions. And maybe worse of all, the self-fulfilling nature of distrust. When you do not trust someone, and they know it, they have no incentive to behave in a trust-worthy manner. It will take a long time to dig the country's self-image…

>consequences of no longer having trustworthy institutions.

Those institutions just spent years getting called deep state by half the country, systemically racist by the other half and in the pockets of entrenched and moneyed interests by both. Color me shocked that nobody trusts them.

The same people who were so happy a year and change ago to earn cheap internet virtue points trotting out tropes about about how the noble FAA has been neutered by Boeing and the revolving door are complaining that people don't trust the CDC. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is a feedback loop. The lower the expectations from these institutions (government, academia, etc.) the less they have to lose by behaving poorly and the more they will behave poorly. It will get worse until it gets so bad it starts getting better.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#297

Post by nielsbot »

dominotw wrote: post #271
nielsbot wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…

> The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. Why doesn't everyone see things clearly for what they are. If its obviously 'the plan' .

I'd argue it's because propaganda works.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#298

Post by shockeychap »

kyrra wrote: post #81

WSJ has a commentary piece in today's paper that is similar but also important. The jist I get out of it is that science is ever evolving and there is no "trust the science", as it just gives us data and is not an absolute truth. Science can provide varying levels of certainty on given part of a subject, but running around and invoking science for policy decisions is a bad plan when there isn't solid data backing it.…

"One had better be scrupulously honest before asking people to surrender their own judgment and simply believe what they are told."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#299

Post by psychlops »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #242
valeness wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

I agree with you pretty much 100%. My anger is that, by not being truthful, I feel like health authorities played right into the hands of the conspiracy theorists and everyone trying to sow doubt that this is some big power grab.

Well, it's also a big power grab so that doesn't help.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#300

Post by nobody9999 »

joshuaissac wrote: post #280
nobody9999 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fauci (and the CDC) lying about masks out of fear it would cause a shortage for healthcare providers burnt a lot of trust quickly. It probably helped the US get into the polarized situation it's in now. This confuses me. If the claim that masks "don't work" caused folks to distrust public health authorities, then why are many of the folks who claim to distrust those PH authorities refusing to wear masks?

Because once they lose their credibility, everything they say will be viewed with distrust. > If the claim that masks "don't work" caused folks to distrust public health authorities I would say it is more the contradictory messaging that caused the distrust, than the initial claim that masks do not work.

>I would say it is more the backtracking that caused the distrust.

And so, if I say "gravity does not exist" and then turn around and say that the effect we call "gravity" accelerates matter at 9.8 meters per second per second, that means "the effect we call gravity" doesn't exist?

That's a strange way to look at it, IMHO.

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