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Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

economist.com

271–280 of 288 posts

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#271
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would want to see regulations where banks are explicitly forbidden from blocking legal transactions. I want the same thing from web service providers - if the content is legal then Amazon, etc. should not be permitted to refuse service. Twitter should not be permitted to have its own terms and conditions, rather they should follow the law - it's either illegal, and ban the person, or it's legal and they must leav…

That literally flies in the face of the first amendment. Forcing a website to host something they don’t like is compelled speech. They’re private corporations and can do what they want. The courts are very clear on that. If you want them to be forced to host everyone, you nationalize them into a utility.

That's what a common carrier is. It's not such a stretch to apply that to general purpose hosts.

And if what you say is right, how can the parent propose requiring banks to process any legal transaction?

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it only we have some kind of country-wide entity that was run by the people through elections and that could create a centralized payment system with open access to everyone.... But no! The state! oh the horror! Cant have state-run things!!!!

Governments the world over are surveiling you without your consent right now. How could you possibly trust them? Centralized economic systems are nothing but yet another state surveillance apparatus. People think it is normal for the state to demand complete identification data on every person businesses transact with. It sacrifices our privacy yet fails to prevent crime. No amount of crime justifies this. We need de…

Man. You can't outrun the government. You can vote, you can try armed insurrection. Reform or revolt, those are the choices, and revolt is guaranteed suicide.

Believe me, you can't outrun it with your fancy digital currency with "so many nodes in operation no single government on earth has any hope..." is terribly naive. They can seize the networks man, they can arrest you, they can shoot you. They eat your bitcoin for lunch.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they deal with fraud/theft?

Very badly. It is now extremely common for criminals to force people to log into the bank app and transfer out all liquid assets, no doubt to bank accounts created with stolen identities. What happens after? I'm not sure. I assume the victim has to prove that a crime occurred in order to reverse the transactions.

No different from what could be done and was done before with debit cards, credit cards and standard wire transfers.

Don't give fuel to the FUD.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#274
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome! We need more countries implementing systems like that. Once that happens, an international or at least EU standard is hopefully soon to follow.

I thought this was ubiquitous in Europe already: both countries I call home (Denmark and Portugal) have each had their own for a long time now.

Not in my experience, although I haven't done an insane amount or traveling. I've seen local payment systems in a handful of countries, but I don't remember any that were commonly used at POS. I know of a handful, for example, built by a few banks or a mobile network operator, but those have little market penetration due to only working with those providers or their partners (but of course not their largest competitor).

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments the world over are surveiling you without your consent right now. How could you possibly trust them? Centralized economic systems are nothing but yet another state surveillance apparatus. People think it is normal for the state to demand complete identification data on every person businesses transact with. It sacrifices our privacy yet fails to prevent crime. No amount of crime justifies this. We need de…

Man. You can't outrun the government. You can vote, you can try armed insurrection. Reform or revolt, those are the choices, and revolt is guaranteed suicide. Believe me, you can't outrun it with your fancy digital currency with "so many nodes in operation no single government on earth has any hope..." is terribly naive. They can seize the networks man, they can arrest you, they can shoot you. They eat your bitcoin f…

> Reform or revolt, those are the choices

There is a third choice. Technology.

Every time some new technology appears, it subverts government controls. They must become even more tyrannical than they already are in order to regain the same level of control they enjoyed before. We'll either end up with an uncontrollable population wielding ubiquitous subversive technology or a totalitarian government which polices every aspect of our digital lives.

Most likely, balance will be found along the way. We're gonna find out just how tyrannical they're willing to become and just how much people really care about their privacy and freedom.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a world where cash is starting to dissapear, payment processors and banking in general should be regulated and treated just like some sort of utility company (Ex: Water, electricity). Advertising is a different beast altogether. Being able to to exchanges (money for goods, etc) is something quite a basic right(If I can call it that). That doesn't apply to making money though. I don't think it's normal in any way t…

How credit card processing hasn't been classified and regulated as a utility is truly baffling to me. Especially with governments explicitly recommending contactless card payments instead of cash during the pandemic and many doing things like taking large bank notes out of circulation for years now. We don't need crazy things like crypto - we need decentralised and accountable banks and payment processors (not that t…

Sure, the standard could be made relatively easily, but how do you go about getting every bank to agree on this standard and update their systems to accommodate it, as well as the 10s of millions of POS terminals in the US alone to be updated, as well as all of the major credit card companies, etc.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How credit card processing hasn't been classified and regulated as a utility is truly baffling to me. Especially with governments explicitly recommending contactless card payments instead of cash during the pandemic and many doing things like taking large bank notes out of circulation for years now. We don't need crazy things like crypto - we need decentralised and accountable banks and payment processors (not that t…

Sure, the standard could be made relatively easily, but how do you go about getting every bank to agree on this standard and update their systems to accommodate it, as well as the 10s of millions of POS terminals in the US alone to be updated, as well as all of the major credit card companies, etc.

You get banks to agree by mandating it. Just like the formats of SEPA Credit Transfers are written into law and required by all EU banks to support.

As for rollout: the NFC payment rollout took like a year to get to the point where I haven't encountered any non-NFC terminals since and that required all new hardware. Now that the hardware is out there, adding support for a new system is just a matter of software. At worst, a technician will have to visit every terminal and update the firmware manually (not sure if those things have OTA). "All the major credit card companies" == two, and it wouldn't really matter for their systems anyways since they're not banks, they are now-obsolete middlemen. People could still choose to use cards and vendors would likely still want to support them, there would simply be one more payment option available.

And yes, I agree that this would probably take forever in the US, but they're still using magstripe and the government is too big of a mess to be able to mandate a technical standard or even pass any legislation regarding banking anyways, so I think they have other things to deal with first.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#278
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should not be so much whether it is legal or illegal in the strict sense. The question is whether bank has sufficient evidence to suspect that illegal activity is taking place. So bank should be held liable if they: - do not collect evidence - do not act on evidence - if they act without evidence The bank should face appropriate penalties for making misjudgments in both directions. For example, you should have a r…

> Banks are obliged by the law to provide basic financial services (bank account and identification services if I recall correctly) to EU residents as part of the European Single Market While offering a "Basic bank account" is a legal requirement, they have no requirement to offer that service to any specific person. In reality, it typically means that they're offered to people in debt, but not to people the bank doe…

They do have a requirement to offer basic payment account to all legal EU residents. Even to people who have no legal right to reside in EU, but whose expulsion is impossible.

From DIRECTIVE 2014/92/EU CHAPTER IV, Article 16:

2. Member States shall ensure that consumers legally resident in the Union, including consumers with no fixed address and asylum seekers, and consumers who are not granted a residence permit but whose expulsion is impossible for legal or factual reasons, have the right to open and use a payment account with basic features with credit institutions located in their territory. Such a right shall apply irrespective of the consumer’s place of residence.

Member States may, in full respect of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed by the Treaties, require consumers who wish to open a payment account with basic features in their territory to show a genuine interest in doing so.

Member States shall ensure that the exercise of the right is not made too difficult or burdensome for the consumer.

From: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr...

If you are legally resident in an EU country you are entitled to open a "basic payment account".

When banks can refuse you a basic payment account

You can be refused an account if you do not comply with EU rules on money laundering and terrorist financing.

In some EU countries, you may be refused a basic bank account if you already have a similar account with another bank in the same country.

If you're applying for a basic payment account outside the country where you live, banks in some EU countries may also want you to prove a genuine interest for doing so – for example if you live in one country but work in another.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#279
post #130

I don't think they're that reluctant, honestly. But it goes beyond credit card companies too. It applies to the whole banking system. It will soon be the case where the majority of Americans live in states where recreational cannabis is legal (it was ~1 in 3 last year but NY, NJ and others will push it over). Yet you can't use a credit card to buy cannabis pretty much anywhere AFAIK. Worse, dispensaries have to opera…

The benefit of public oversight over free trade is accountability via due process. If you manufacture a hot dog and it's contaminated with something, or falsely advertised as kosher or halal, or doesn't meet any of a thousand little constraints in production, maintenance, delivery, and communication about the product, you are held accountable for violating the law.

Sex trade is different because of stigma and culture and prohibition. Stigma and culture have to change through education, activism, and time, but prohibition can be dealt with immediately. Create a robust framework of protections for sex work, protecting the rights of workers, and incorporate the industry into the existing legal system.

Getting rid of trafficking, pimps, and lack of recourse for workers and consumers negates far greater harms than any moral social corruption predicted by pearl clutchers.

The same applies to almost everything which society tries to cope with through prohibition. Black markets spawn second class dealers in vice, money and trade off book to the detriment of everyone except kingpins and corrupt agents of government and law enforcement. The vulnerable and desperate get locked into feedback loops of abuse and exploitation.

Legalizing all drugs and sex work almost completely eliminates the niches that perpetuate black markets. Forcing banks and legal jurisdictions to treat trade in vice equally to any other economic activity gives society the opportunity to treat drug abuse as a health issue. It enables sex workers to receive justice for abuse. It virtually eliminates the primary sources of income for cartels and kingpins. It forces culture to adapt, eventually allowing activists the opportunity to destigmatize responsible activities of adults in private.

We have laws that protect consumers and service providers, that give resource for violence and theft and fraud. It shouldn't matter what substance or sex act or hot dog brand was involved if a citizen is injured.

Adults have no business telling other adults what they can consume, or do in private. The business of government is behavior in public and in maintaining the rights of citizens in private.

We have ample and overwhelming evidence that prohibition always creates more harm than good, across thousands of years of history. It never works and always creates opportunities for abuse and horror. We also know that legalized vice results in more responsible use and less frequent consumption and fewer harms across the board.

It should be a no brainer. We should have responsible drug use education. We should have public sex work education.

Financial institutions crafting pseudo-moral gatekeeping policy from the whims of executives, pr departments, and Twitter outrage is a disgusting offense against society.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#280
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very difficult task to determine if a transaction is legal or not, sometimes impossible. Regulations differ not only on the country and state level, but sometimes the city level. For example, can you buy alcohol in Delaware? Well, not if it's Sunday. How about a weekday? Not if it's between 1am and 9am. Can you buy alcohol in New Jersey on Sunday? Sure, well not if you're in Bergen County. That's one product.…

"For example, can you buy alcohol in Delaware?" Next, TESLA eula will forbid you from going to questionable establishments, and the car will shut off if you arwle going to a strip club. USSR couldn't dream of this level of surveillance, turns out the trick was to privatise it.

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