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China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

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Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#301

Post by dragonwriter »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #300
dragonwriter wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ROC is de jure a country, and the PRC is de jure a country, but mostly not in the same legal systems, and with essentially coextensive de jure territory. De facto mainland China and Taiwan are separate countries, with distinct territories, governed respectively by the PRC and ROC. That is the basis (or perhaps just expansion) of the upthread description that Taiwan is, de facto , a distinct country from China.

So the ROC and PRC are de jure countries, and de facto countries, and well countries. I still don't understand the point of the qualifier. I don't hear people refer to China as a de facto country so why use the qualifier for Taiwan?

> So the ROC and PRC are de jure countries

Actually, looking back, that was probably not something I should have said.

ROC and the PRC are each (in their own legal systems) the de jure government of the same (widely formally recognized, usually with the PRC formally recognized as the government) country, “China”.

“Taiwan” and “mainland China” are de facto countries, governed in fact by the ROC and PRC, and are often treated as such by countries that formally recognize one China with the PRC as its government.

> why use the qualifier for Taiwan?

Because in most legal systems that aren’t that of the ROC itself, the PRC is the recognized government of the single de jure country of “China” that subsumes both the de facto countries of mainland China and of Taiwan. ROC is, in those systems, only and exclusively the de facto government of the de facto country of Taiwan, and not the de jure government of anything, and Taiwan is de jure a province of China.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#302

Post by wolverine876 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #228
wolverine876 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese people who do have free speech, in Taiwan, and did, in Hong Kong, certainly don't/didn't like the CCP much. Perhaps that's why the CCP felt the need to shut down freedom in Hong Kong - too much criticism. If the CCP is so popular, why not have free speech and elections?

The answer here appears to be simple. Because elections and free speech are aspects of the system that by design introduce certain level of instability, but also a way to channel population frustration thus preventing having to resort to violence. CCP chose stability of system above all else.

> The answer here appears to be simple.

It was a rhetorical question. The CCP doesn't allow elections and free speech because they don't want to lose power.

> elections and free speech are aspects of the system that by design introduce certain level of instability

That's the standard claim of dictators, including the CCP, but it's just their propaganda. Democratic governments are far more stable. Chinese democracies - Taiwan and Hong Kong - are/were very stable. Japan, South Korea, etc. When was the last time the US, UK, etc. had a stability problem? Compare that to China, North Korea, and the rest.

Also, that claim looks at it only from the dictator's point of view (a natural bias): Will my power last? I might be voted out at any time! I could be criticized into irrelevancy! That would be a catastrophe for the country if my great leadership was removed! Democracies change leaders frequently and with ease; it's rule of law, not of a person (or personality).

Finally, from the ordinary citizen's point of view, democracies are far more stable: Their rights are protected; they won't be arbitrarily arrested, have their assets seized, be sent to reeducation camps, etc.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#303

Post by wolverine876 »

lelandfe wrote: post #248
wolverine876 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is that quote from? I don't want to ironically get caught by propaganda (or misinformation) myself.

Fun one to track down. Had to hop through a couple papers and books, but this is what everything winds up referencing: > It was an organization designed not only to disseminate information and to clarify issues but also to arouse support for particular symbols and ideas. "The easiest way to inject a propaganda idea into most people's minds," said Davis, "is to let it go in through the medium of an entertainment pictu…

C'mon, you didn't break into the Archive and open the box? Typical Internet nonsense.

Seriously: very nice work; thank you. Above and beyond!

> "The easiest way to inject a propaganda idea into most people's minds," said Davis, "is to let it go in through the medium of an entertainment picture when they do not realize that they are being propagandized."

Now a nearly irrelevant second place to social media.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#304

Post by 71a54xd »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #96
71a54xd wrote: post #58

The notion of China posturing to defend / support the idea of intellectual property is patently hilarious. Obviously, the core of this is not appeasing to Chinese / CCP censors but the headline is funny nonetheless.

[ This post represents my private opinions and is unrelated to my employment. ] It seems like you're trying to be flippantly dismissive, or to just make a joke, but the intent of your 'joke' isn't clear at all. What are you trying to intimate? Chinese companies gain millions of patents each year, in China and elsewhere, so China defending IPR as a concept seems wise. They seem to use a lot of utility patents (I think…

This is the most HN "diss" response I've gotten in years and I genuinely enjoyed it. You missed the point so far while trying to sound intellectual I'm absolutely floored. Thank you for the happiness this granted me today - I hope you're happy and living life to the fullest :)

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#305

Post by 71a54xd »

drsnow wrote: post #111
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ This post represents my private opinions and is unrelated to my employment. ] It seems like you're trying to be flippantly dismissive, or to just make a joke, but the intent of your 'joke' isn't clear at all. What are you trying to intimate? Chinese companies gain millions of patents each year, in China and elsewhere, so China defending IPR as a concept seems wise. They seem to use a lot of utility patents (I think…

It's hilarious because China regularly steals trade secrets and intellectual property from any, primarily American, company they desire.

Did you catch the pun?

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#306

Post by CogitoCogito »

dragonwriter wrote: post #301
CogitoCogito wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the ROC and PRC are de jure countries, and de facto countries, and well countries. I still don't understand the point of the qualifier. I don't hear people refer to China as a de facto country so why use the qualifier for Taiwan?

> So the ROC and PRC are de jure countries Actually, looking back, that was probably not something I should have said. ROC and the PRC are each (in their own legal systems) the de jure government of the same (widely formally recognized, usually with the PRC formally recognized as the government) country, “China”. “Taiwan” and “mainland China” are de facto countries, governed in fact by the ROC and PRC, and are often…

> Because in most legal systems that aren’t that of the ROC itself, the PRC is the recognized government of the single de jure country of “China” that subsumes both the de facto countries of mainland China and of Taiwan. ROC is, in those systems, only and exclusively the de facto government of the de facto country of Taiwan, and not the de jure government of anything, and Taiwan is de jure a province of China.

Which legal systems are you referring to in your last paragraph? The US, for example, does _not_ recognize Chinese claims to Taiwan. They acknowledge that China makes them and has agreed not to have official relations with the ROC, but they've never agreed with the claims nor have they ever made any statement to the effect that the ROC isn't a country nor that the ROC is not a legitimate government.

Frankly I suspect your confusion is a result of a misunderstanding of UN resolution 2758. That resolution said that the PRC gets the seat of "China" at the UN. It never said anything about what the borders of the PRC are. It also never said that Taiwan couldn't become a member as "Republic of China" either. (Of course, since China can block that action unilaterally as a member of the security counsel it's a non-starter.)

Anyway I may be wrong about your misconception, but then I don't know what you mean exactly. The US definitely does not consider Taiwan as a province of the PRC. I can't speak for other countries' legal systems, but at least I'm not familiar with many in Europe that have that legal designation. Sure most don't have relations with the ROC, but that's obviously not the same thing.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#308

Post by krageon »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #298
Omnitaus wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia absolutely has a conservative bent, I wouldn't call the editing body "liberal" for using a newspaper owned by a union-busting multibillionaire as a source You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true. We have a "blood and soil" far right party and a "diverse corporate oligopoly" center-right party.

> You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true. "Two people repeating it on HN comments" != "it's true". It really boils down to: What's your standard of reference? You seem to want to use Europe (I assume) as the standard for defining left and right in US politics. Why do you consider that a reasonable thing to do? And even if you consider it a reasonable thi…

Are you under the impression that if the hypothetical scope were moved off of Europe (why even assume it is on there?), US political parties would seem less unilaterally right-wing? I don't think you could make a coherent (and truthful) case for that, but I might be interested to read it.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#309

Post by krageon »

andyxor wrote: post #276
krageon wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every US politician that anyone would actually know is extreme right, so this is a very big group. Not a very useful classification, you may as well have said "any US politician". Then we get to the point where it is unclear what your actual problem is with their wikipedia pages. The only thing that can be concluded is that you apparently believe the wikipedia page of every US politician is somehow anomalous. It tell…

I mean, most of Republicans on wikipedia are vilified as "far-right conspiracy theorists" and all shades of evil, with links to fake news as source of information (Washington Post for example) one can argue, that if MSM spreads disinfo what can you expect from wikipedians, but the problem is their "power editors" and admins are a small clique with very particular political bias, it's just another echo chamber

> vilified

When it is just the truth, you don't need to spin it to have a certain kind of impact. The impact exists even when you view things impassively, without much care one way or the other.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#310

Post by fennecfoxy »

epgui wrote: post #104

(Disclaimer: I'm a franco-Canadian of mixed European descent.) This article doesn't give China a great image, sure. I can think of a million criticisms to levy against China. However, I feel like a lot of the comments aren't just criticizing China, they seem to be outright anti-China. I wonder if, in the grand scheme of things, Americans/Westerners might be feeling threatened by the shift in power. I wonder if Americ…

>I wonder if, in the grand scheme of things, Americans/Westerners might be feeling threatened by the shift in power

Of course, but in many ways it's the threat of the same shift in power between the allies and the axis in WWII. China is not a nice country. Openly imprisoning and "re-educating" uyghurs there, Tibet, Taiwan, openly hunting down and organ harvesting the falun-gong. The West does plenty of bad stuff too but nothing on the same level, and definitely not as openly as if saying "what're you going to do about it".

Same as Russia assassinating people recently, it's a "what're you going to do about it?" scenario. Now that nuclear weapons exists the world is going to go to shit because nobody can do anything about it anymore.

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