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Is going to the office a broken way of working?

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Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#361
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine does not make you fully immune, and the vaccine does not necessarily prevent you carrying and transmitting the virus. It just makes it less likely to happen (and you're certainly much less likely to become a coughing superspreader). I don't know about where you live, but many places in the world have not yet reached levels of vaccination that would make make masking and social distancing redundant.

I had to double check when I read this post to make sure that you were the same person that posted: > Frankly, fuck people who refuse to get vaccinated - they can rot in their own home for all I care (not talking about people with legitimate health risks, obviously). How do you reconcile your apparent disdain for unvaccinated people with the fact that you do not believe the vaccine to be effective? Alternatively, you…

>How do you reconcile your apparent disdain for unvaccinated people with the fact that you do not believe the vaccine to be effective?

by saying "effective" you wanted to say "perfect"?

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#362
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No wonder everyone seems more of an asshole than usual. Great society we're building. Really future proof. /s

What’s the point of society if not to stress test it? Humanity won’t be able to rest on its laurels forever. If it’s not some local natural predator trying to kill us (animal, virus, etc), it’ll be some extraterrestrial species next. We need to go through periods like this to adapt and become stronger. God forbid humans go through a couple years of reduced contact. If we can’t do and society is really that fragile, t…

It's been kind of a joke of a test. But even then, we've seen a whole lot of people act like total imbeciles.

Yeah, we're total fucked if a real problem hits us.

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#363
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no excess deaths. False[1][2][3][4][5]. Sweden had 7.7% higher mortality in 2020 than it averaged from 2016-2019. By comparison, Sweden's closest neighbors (geographically, demographically, and socioeconomically) had far, far lower mortality because of lockdowns, mask mandates, and closing restaurants[3][4]. > "Sweden, with a COVID-19 attributed death rate of 0.54 per 1000 population as of July 5, has a higher…

Meanwhile Belgium had around 20% excess deaths and much much stricter lockdowns. Most of Sweden’s excess deaths occurred in nursing homes, which weren’t protected enough; it had nothing to do with regular people eating at restaurants and everything to do with the protocol at those specific places. It’s quite obvious that lockdowns have dubious effects(if any) while the harms and detriment to society never seem to be…

If you consider Sweden's sparse population density (except for a few hotspots like Stockholm) and their 'natural tendency' towards social distancing, it's really quite telling that they've managed such a rate of excess deaths. The freedom might have been worth it in some regards, but it certainly came at a price.

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notably Sweden introduced a number of restrictions after that first wave. For instance, GGP is right that restaurants weren't closed down...but they couldn't be full, your party had to be small, and you wouldn't be there at night.

>but they couldn't be full, your party had to be small, and you wouldn't be there at night. Ah yes, the craziest restriction of all, restricting things from being open at night . That way, everyone goes at the same time increasing crowding. But since less people are allowed in, everyone crowds around waiting to get in. So now a place that would have 1 person an hour over 10 hours, instead has 2 people an hour over 5…

My understanding was this prevents people staying around bars and restaurants drinking, and it was (at least informally) accepted knowledge that drunk people don't distance or mask as much

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#365
post #250

I genuinely miss the office. Being in a different space for work (one that was pretty gorgeous), in a nice part of downtown, able to tap people on the shoulder for quick questions rather than having to ping them over chat, more spontaneous collaboration (right before we went remote again I overheard two people discussing an area I have some expertise in and was able to interject and provide useful insight), extra pro…

For those of you who miss the office, what does your life look like outside it? Do you have an active social circle? Do you have regular, sustained, positive interaction with your neighbors (i.e. do you do more than say hello in passing)? Kids who do sports? A long commute or a short one? A house or an apartment? Do you do your own housework or do you hire it out? When you're in the office, where do you work (e.g. pr…

You haven't gotten any responses here, so I'll bite.

> Do you have an active social circle? Do you have regular, sustained, positive interaction with your neighbors (i.e. do you do more than say hello in passing)? Kids who do sports? A long commute or a short one? A house or an apartment? Do you do your own housework or do you hire it out? When you're in the office, where do you work (e.g. private office, cubicle, open plan)?

I live in the US (bay area), so my responses will be based on that.

A lot of us were forced to work remote for the last year and a half, which is a bit different than (I presume what you did was) deciding to work from home permanently. There are also pandemic-induced factors that might help people to miss the office more than they might in normal WFH circumstances.

> Social circle / neighbors

COVID kind of killed in-person socialization for a year for the cautious, so social circles and activities aren't as relevant here nor as easy to maintain (compared to a 'normal' WFH timeline). I had a couple groups that did online video calls and catchups / games, but all of those engagements slowly tapered off.

It's also a time where it is incredibly difficult to meet new people, as most are either content with their current circle or are not open to engaging with new people due to COVID. This also applies to my neighbors in my apartment building - nobody seems to want to socialize (I've tried a bit).

> Distractions

I think I'm unique in this one in that I have difficulty maintaining focus for a few reasons, but the office isn't one of them. Once I have some headphones on I'm usually fine.

> Marina and [insert other hobby]

A lot of my hobbies I have were/are typically done at home. I like to read, play games, and sometimes watch tv or twitch or what not, with whatever else is my flavor hobby at the time. None of these are good at getting me out of my apartment, though it is nice to take a book somewhere and sit for a bit now that places are open more around me.

> Commute / evenings / scheduling

My commute is hellish. It's the one thing I don't miss about the office. I agree with you here. The only good thing was it being a good time for winding down after work, which still have to do anyway before I have the energy for another activity.

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I find a lot of the people who are satisfied with WFH fall into one or more of the following categories: people who live with others (partners, family), those who have kids[0], some own homes / larger living spaces. Partners and family keep you company. Kids can keep you busy. A larger space is easier to be in for a long amount of time.

I'm someone who lives alone, in around 600-700sqft apartment, in a city where I only know a handful of people (who were in/out of town much of last year), was told to stay inside / social distance until early 2021, with nearly everything around me closed for a long time.

I've spent a year and a half sometimes going weeks without seeing someone I know, and it has been very isolating and quite hellish. And I would even consider myself an introvert. My friends in the area happen to all be couples that are quite happy to spend time together. Things have been getting better the last six months or so, but 2020 was bad. (This point is a bit thin since in a 'normal' non-pandemic world, a lot of this wouldn't be the case. But 'free' socialization is one reason why I miss the office now.)

Seeing other people you work with face-to-face is nice. It lets you take breaks / walks together, grab coffee, lunch, or generally just BS for 5-10 minutes when you both need a bit. That's aside from the working bits where proximity can help. I miss pairing with other developers on my team.

Office perks were nice. My company provided meals, snacks, drinks, etc. There was also a well-equipped gym that was free, better than I can get in my area, and certainly better than what fits in my apartment. And the space is obviously much larger than my apartment.

Working on a schedule helped provide some structure to day-to-day (for me). I miss going into the office because it provided some structure for me that I didn't have to do myself.

I don't have the space to distance work from leisure in my apartment, which can make it difficult to focus. My home is full of many things that are more interesting than what I am working on, so the psychology is against me. Going into the office provided an easy separation here.

So those are the reasons why I miss the office. That was longer than I thought it would be. Sorry for the wall of text there.

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I will admit that some of these are things I could address myself with moderate - large effort. I could be more proactive with friends and neighbors. I could be more disciplined with my schedule. I could try to find better outdoor hobbies. But honestly right now I am just trying to make it by however I can, so some of those seem daunting. I think that's a lot of folks right now.

In hindsight, I should have packed all of my stuff in a storage unit and went to go bunk with some family for a year and work from there. In extra-extra hindsight, if you had told me in 2019 that this would happen, I would have kept living with my roommate instead of striking it out on my own in the fall.

[0] I feel for the parents who relied on daycare / school as a 'break' from their kids and now have had to manage it themselves. I've also had that sympathy worn quite thin from all of the 'WFH must be great if you're single with no kids!' comments I've been seeing for a year. Frankly I'd kill for a spouse and some kids to provide any interaction or structure to a normal day.

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#366
post #46

I’m gonna go against the HN grain here and, despite having been fully for remote work for the first year or so of the pandemic, come out and say that life has really gotten a lot more repetitive and frankly disappointing since covid and the death of the office. I kind of miss meeting people in the office. I was in the unfortunate position of having moved to a new city for a new tech job where I knew nobody just seven…

I think you're correct, but one thing that is really missing nowadays, especially with phones and the internet, is active communities that exist in real life outside of work. Stuff like the elks lodge, rotary, bowling leagues, etc are just not as common anymore as I believe they used to be. Certainly there are many things that exist, but in a way societally it seems like they don't have very much cache, even as far a…

Church, and charities, can help finding social outlets outside of work (or be that themselves).

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is any need to defend in person work. Until very recently it was the only socially accepted form of work. As the default, we all have a little experience in it.

> I don’t think there is any need to defend in person work. There is a need to defend it though. I've already seen several businesses claim that remote work is "the future". Personally, I feel that remote work has been very detrimental to my mental health and I hate it. I don't want that future. It feels very unhealthy.

After 1.5 years, I tried working in office yesterday. The experience was horrible. Work conditions were inferior when compared to my home. Going to office and back home feels very inefficient and harmful to the environment.

No thanks for offices.

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because we are in the middle of a global pandemic. Really? Maybe I forgot because here in France it feels like we've kinda gone back to business as usual, as long as one can show proof of vaccination (necessary if you want to go to the restaurants, cinemas and museums).

France, Germany and Italy have really disappointed with their heavyhanded approach against those that are not vaccinated. With that said, i think many are still a bit cautious after being bombarded with warnings of the Coronavirus for 12 months straight. To me though I'm back to normality and slowly but surely everyone else.

If everybody got the damn vaccine the thing would be over much faster. Not getting vaccinated or wearing a mask is an active effort to prolong the existence of a virus that doesn't give a damn about how people rationalize their bad decisions. And I stopped giving a damn about people who defend the metaphorical licking of rats during a plague. I have yet to hear a good rational reason for not getting a vaccine, that isn't vague or hand wavy E.g. quoting some medical reason that turns out to be bullshit when you ask a medical professional. When you point that out to them instead of "great! And I thought I couldn't get the vaccine!" they find the next bullshit reason why they cannot get it, with the final frontier being some defiant stubbornness where "they cannot make me" as if it was the last act of personal freedom they have left to defend: zero practical value, all inside the symbolic domain. Viruses don't care about the symbolic domain.

In a fire be the person who gets a bucket of water not the person who keeps explaining why they cannot (or worse: the person who tries to convince others they cannot). Don't be the person who has to be forced by the rest of the village to help putting out the fire (or help preventing it's spread). If you have a valid reason (e.g. no hands to carry buckets) everybody will understand, but "I can't be bothered to do something for the collective, because I am a free individual" is not a valid reason IMO. Not during an emergency. "Oh but it is my gasoline tank on my property so I got to decide what happens with it" — not during a fire. A fire doesn't care about property.

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#369
post #34

My impression from previous discussions is that people like what they like whether it's remote or in office and there isn't a lot of convincing that we can do to each other. Given the above, how do companies move forward? Make some % of your employees unhappy because they're either dragged back into the office or forced to work without one? Hybrid models? They seem like the worst of everything and they don't look lik…

Remote work is a sink. If even 30% of people are remote everything must adapt to remote-first, and a 70% full office is not really useful, it s like a work during august. So inevitably things will adjust to 98% remote over time. so knowledge based work should prepare for remote-first

Re: Is going to the office a broken way of working?

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... has pre-existing families/friends to socialize with. It's easy to believe the people you work with are friends to socialize with, but the reality is that most people cut ties with their coworkers as soon as they change job, especially early in your career when you're hopping from one job to another every few years. Those people are temporary friends at best. I recommend doing everything you can to cultivate frien…

> but the reality is that most people cut ties with their coworkers I dislike this type of comment as it presumes that one person's personal experience is "reality" or a reasonable representation of what everyone else has experienced. It assumes that something as complicated as personal relationships can be can be distilled down into some sort of "average" or "normal" protocol and that if your experience doesn't alig…

I dislike this type of comment as it presumes that one person's personal experience is "reality" or a reasonable representation of what everyone else has experienced.

It's my own experience, and the experience of literally everyone I've ever talked to about it, and something many people have written about in articles about the difficulties of making friends as an adult. No doubt there are people who maintain friendships with people they've worked with long after leaving a job but I don't believe it's very common. If your experience is different then I think you are an outlier. There's nothing wrong with that. You're better off than the rest of us.

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