FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming • Hacker News Board

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#31

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

LinuxBender wrote: post #7

rbanffy wrote: post #2

What kind of deranged person messes with GPS risking to crash an airplane?

I shall consult the expert team at 4chan /s But seriously "We've been told we can't ask to stop jamming, and to just put everyone on headings." ... people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel. Maybe the right passive aggressive response could have been to simply set a really large diameter TFR to keep civilian aircraft away assuming people check NOTAMs.

> people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel

Shouldn't you always be ready for a GPS (or other instrument) failure?

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#32

Post by andrepew » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #29

It really annoys me how far into an article you have to read before it becomes clear that they're only telling one, disputed side of the story. > The US Army takes the safety of its operations extremely seriously. Calls for a cease buzzer are taken seriously and range control has not denied or ignored any cease buzzers.

The US Army and the FAA are two separate entities. The example in the article mentioned that a FAA facility manager might have denied escalation to use the buzzer, not the US Army.

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#33

Post by linuxhansl » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

As a lay person in this area... There are more navigation systems around: The EU Galileo, Russia's GLONASS, etc.

Assuming it's unlikely that all system are down/jammed/compromised in the same area at the same time, receivers for multiple systems should be OK...? (Again lay person here)

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#34

Post by LinuxBender » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #31

LinuxBender wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall consult the expert team at 4chan /s But seriously "We've been told we can't ask to stop jamming, and to just put everyone on headings." ... people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel. Maybe the right passive aggressive response could have been to simply set a really large diameter TFR to keep civilian aircraft away assuming people check NOTAMs.

> people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel Shouldn't you always be ready for a GPS (or other instrument) failure?

Yes that's even part of the verbal/written test. You have to calculate fuel requirements to different distances and they give you options that would be technically right but check to see if you pick the conservative approach in the event of this very situation. If you want to see how many people toss that knowledge out the window listen to some of the videos at VASAvation [1] and instead choose to land on freeways, city streets, farm fields, etc... Not all of them are due to fuel, but some are.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/VASAviation/videos

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#35

Post by AlotOfReading » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #21

tweedledee wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s for military protection. I had a flight canceled due to GPS jamming. I think it was to protect a U2 flight. Putin also flies around with GPS jammers.

Wouldn't that mean that Putin's flights can't use GPS to navigate? But maybe he worries more about someone intercepting his plane than he does about crashing due to a navigation mistake. And his risk assessment may in fact be accurate...

I'd assume a russian military plane would primarily use GLONASS. GLONASS has the advantage of being more resistant to narrowband single tone jamming because it uses FDMA rather than CDMA like GPS. The signals are also in slightly different frequency ranges.

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#36

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

> "Aircraft are greatly affected by the GPS jamming and it's not taken seriously by management," reads one report. "We've been told we can't ask to stop jamming, and to just put everyone on headings."

This is the military practicing, but I would hope that civilian airline transport operations are also robust to GNSS unavailability or denial. Even private pilots in little Cessnas are taught to navigate using radio-navigation (NDB beacons, VORs, etc.) in the event that GPS is not available. You should absolutely be able to turn your GPS off and get to your destination.

The fact that radio-navigation aids are being phased out in favor of GNSS, turning it into a single point of failure, is pretty concerning.

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#37

Post by loeg » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #31

LinuxBender wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall consult the expert team at 4chan /s But seriously "We've been told we can't ask to stop jamming, and to just put everyone on headings." ... people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel. Maybe the right passive aggressive response could have been to simply set a really large diameter TFR to keep civilian aircraft away assuming people check NOTAMs.

> people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel Shouldn't you always be ready for a GPS (or other instrument) failure?

Instrument failures are rare and might impact a handful of aircraft; GPS jamming impacts every aircraft in the vicinity. ATC might have capacity to plan low fuel-consumption flight heading paths for a small number of aircraft, but not 100%?

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#38

Post by loeg » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

joncp wrote: post #27

rbanffy wrote: post #2

What kind of deranged person messes with GPS risking to crash an airplane?

Well keep in mind that US GPS was developed by and is owned/operated by the US military. They're just letting us use it.

The military serves the taxpayers.

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#39

Post by FpUser » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

joncp wrote: post #27

rbanffy wrote: post #2

What kind of deranged person messes with GPS risking to crash an airplane?

Well keep in mind that US GPS was developed by and is owned/operated by the US military. They're just letting us use it.

Well the only reason military can own /pay for anything is because it takes our money in a first place. So unless there are specific security concerns civilians should be able to use whatever military tech they've paid for.

Re: FAA Fumbled Its Response to a Surge in GPS Jamming

#40

Post by SiempreViernes » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #31

LinuxBender wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall consult the expert team at 4chan /s But seriously "We've been told we can't ask to stop jamming, and to just put everyone on headings." ... people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel. Maybe the right passive aggressive response could have been to simply set a really large diameter TFR to keep civilian aircraft away assuming people check NOTAMs.

> people inbound not ready for this can run out of fuel Shouldn't you always be ready for a GPS (or other instrument) failure?

Of course you should be prepared for accidents, but it's quite another to be so prepared accidents don't turn into emergencies.