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China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

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Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#291

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

thefringthing wrote: post #287
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As of today ... ... the Taiwan independence movement claims only the island of Taiwan for the Taiwanese nation, and is a core aspect of the Pan Green Coalition, which has 56% of the legislative and the president.

It's true that Taiwan's official position no longer reflects either reality or the desires of its people. I think it would be ideal of Taiwan could be come de jure independent and sovereign, but that would essentially require some deal between China and the USA which is certainly not forthcoming.

The moment Taiwan officially drops their claims and declares Taiwanese Independence, China will attack.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#292

Post by thefringthing »

dragonwriter wrote: post #289
thefringthing wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? They claim to be the government of the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and claim the entire island of Ireland as the territory of that state. Claims are very cheap.

> Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? Unlike both the ROC and the PRC, they don't actually govern anything in practice, irrespective of whether it is coextensive with their claims. Upthread post claimed the ROC and PRC are both governments of real and separate countries in practice , independent of their overlapping theoretical claims. Doesn't seem a related thing at all…

Right, Taiwan is a de facto but not de jure country. That fact is what the person upthread was objecting to in the first place.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#293

Post by thefringthing »

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #291
thefringthing wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that Taiwan's official position no longer reflects either reality or the desires of its people. I think it would be ideal of Taiwan could be come de jure independent and sovereign, but that would essentially require some deal between China and the USA which is certainly not forthcoming.

The moment Taiwan officially drops their claims and declares Taiwanese Independence, China will attack.

Right. China's position is that a declaration of independence from Taiwan constitutes an act of war against China by what is essentially a US/NATO proxy. So the US/NATO would have to trade something to China for Taiwan and it's not clear to me that they have anything to offer that matters to China.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#294

Post by rsj_hn »

thefringthing wrote: post #293
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment Taiwan officially drops their claims and declares Taiwanese Independence, China will attack.

Right. China's position is that a declaration of independence from Taiwan constitutes an act of war against China by what is essentially a US/NATO proxy. So the US/NATO would have to trade something to China for Taiwan and it's not clear to me that they have anything to offer that matters to China.

> China's position is that a declaration of independence from Taiwan constitutes an act of war against China by what is essentially a US/NATO proxy

Right, and one could also say that America's position is that China isn't allowed to invade Taiwan, so I guess if China wanted to do that, it would need to trade something of value to America to let it happen, and I'm not sure China has anything to trade that matters to America. This is the US-Sino agreement -- China isn't allowed to invade, the US isn't allowed to recognize independence. The situation can only be settled with diplomacy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy for more information about this agreement -- which both the US and China signed.

So you see, China can't really prevent the US from recognizing an Independent Taiwan, but neither can the US prevent China from attacking Taiwan. Both of these balance. China can sabre rattle, sort go up to but not actually invade, just as the US can go up to but not actually recognize Taiwanese independence. For example China can violate Taiwanese airspace but then leave without shooting at anyone. And the US can open an "office" in Taiwan that isn't quite an embassy but does some consular work. And perhaps an American official might visit that office and shake a few hands.

It's a weird tit-for-tat.

This is the game that is being played. The US is betting that it has time on its side. With each year that passes, the Taiwanese consider themselves more independent in their own consciousness. China is betting on rapidly becoming so rich and such a pleasant place to live that the Taiwanese will want to reunify in order to enjoy the Blessings of Beijing. Everything else is either play-acting or dangerous stupidity. Because I think Xi is a smart guy, I think he is play-acting and for a domestic audience. Whenever there is some problem like electricity blackouts, or some corruption scandal, Xi does some provocation against Taiwan and people fall behind him ready to avenge Chinese honor. But I know there is a non-zero chance that I could be wrong, and perhaps Xi really means it. That would be disastrous for all sides.

So international disputes are not really settled by one side having a position only, there are multiple sides, each needing to compromise on their position. Being rigid often ends up backfiring, particularly for a nation locked into the dollar system and one that isn't food or energy independent.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#295

Post by Omnitaus »

andyxor wrote: post #276
krageon wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every US politician that anyone would actually know is extreme right, so this is a very big group. Not a very useful classification, you may as well have said "any US politician". Then we get to the point where it is unclear what your actual problem is with their wikipedia pages. The only thing that can be concluded is that you apparently believe the wikipedia page of every US politician is somehow anomalous. It tell…

I mean, most of Republicans on wikipedia are vilified as "far-right conspiracy theorists" and all shades of evil, with links to fake news as source of information (Washington Post for example) one can argue, that if MSM spreads disinfo what can you expect from wikipedians, but the problem is their "power editors" and admins are a small clique with very particular political bias, it's just another echo chamber

Wikipedia absolutely has a conservative bent, I wouldn't call the editing body "liberal" for using a newspaper owned by a union-busting multibillionaire as a source

You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true. We have a "blood and soil" far right party and a "diverse corporate oligopoly" center-right party.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#296

Post by CogitoCogito »

thefringthing wrote: post #292
dragonwriter wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you call the Army Council of the Continuity IRA the government of a country? Unlike both the ROC and the PRC, they don't actually govern anything in practice, irrespective of whether it is coextensive with their claims. Upthread post claimed the ROC and PRC are both governments of real and separate countries in practice , independent of their overlapping theoretical claims. Doesn't seem a related thing at all…

Right, Taiwan is a de facto but not de jure country. That fact is what the person upthread was objecting to in the first place.

The ROC is de jure* a country.

*Well as much as a such a claim can be made without specifying what legal system is being referred to.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#297

Post by dragonwriter »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #296
thefringthing wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, Taiwan is a de facto but not de jure country. That fact is what the person upthread was objecting to in the first place.

The ROC is de jure* a country. *Well as much as a such a claim can be made without specifying what legal system is being referred to.

The ROC is de jure a country, and the PRC is de jure a country, but mostly not in the same legal systems, and with essentially coextensive de jure territory.

De facto mainland China and Taiwan are separate countries, with distinct territories, governed respectively by the PRC and ROC.

That is the basis (or perhaps just expansion) of the upthread description that Taiwan is, de facto, a distinct country from China.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#298

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Omnitaus wrote: post #295
andyxor wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, most of Republicans on wikipedia are vilified as "far-right conspiracy theorists" and all shades of evil, with links to fake news as source of information (Washington Post for example) one can argue, that if MSM spreads disinfo what can you expect from wikipedians, but the problem is their "power editors" and admins are a small clique with very particular political bias, it's just another echo chamber

Wikipedia absolutely has a conservative bent, I wouldn't call the editing body "liberal" for using a newspaper owned by a union-busting multibillionaire as a source You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true. We have a "blood and soil" far right party and a "diverse corporate oligopoly" center-right party.

> You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true.

"Two people repeating it on HN comments" != "it's true".

It really boils down to: What's your standard of reference? You seem to want to use Europe (I assume) as the standard for defining left and right in US politics. Why do you consider that a reasonable thing to do?

And even if you consider it a reasonable thing, why Europe? Why not Asia? Or the Middle East? Or Africa? Or the world as a whole?

Or why not, you know, use the US as the standard for judging what left and right are in US politics?

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#299

Post by rsj_hn »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #298
Omnitaus wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia absolutely has a conservative bent, I wouldn't call the editing body "liberal" for using a newspaper owned by a union-busting multibillionaire as a source You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true. We have a "blood and soil" far right party and a "diverse corporate oligopoly" center-right party.

> You didn't really respond to the assertion that all American politicians are right-wing, but it's true. "Two people repeating it on HN comments" != "it's true". It really boils down to: What's your standard of reference? You seem to want to use Europe (I assume) as the standard for defining left and right in US politics. Why do you consider that a reasonable thing to do? And even if you consider it a reasonable thi…

I have noticed this thing where people get really offended if you were to say "America is a Western European nation", constantly pointing out that America is sampled from the whole world, and a rapidly shrinking subset of that world is Western Europe. In fact if one were to say that today, they might even be accused of Eurocentrism, racism or other bad things.

Right up until politics, crime rates, infrastructure, public policy, or really any matter of consequence is discussed, at which point we transform back into a Western European nation.

There must be a word to describe this type of dualist rhetoric but I can't quite put my finger on it. Also, those people complaining about the Democrat or Republican party being too right wing tend to be Americans who know nothing about right wing political parties in Europe. Yes, left wing parties in a multi-party system are much more radical in Europe, but so are right wing parties. What these people want is the stability and institutional weight of a party in the two-party system but the radicalism of a European left-wing party.

Re: China blocks Wikimedia from entering World Intellectual Property Organization

#300

Post by CogitoCogito »

dragonwriter wrote: post #297
CogitoCogito wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ROC is de jure* a country. *Well as much as a such a claim can be made without specifying what legal system is being referred to.

The ROC is de jure a country, and the PRC is de jure a country, but mostly not in the same legal systems, and with essentially coextensive de jure territory. De facto mainland China and Taiwan are separate countries, with distinct territories, governed respectively by the PRC and ROC. That is the basis (or perhaps just expansion) of the upthread description that Taiwan is, de facto , a distinct country from China.

So the ROC and PRC are de jure countries, and de facto countries, and well countries.

I still don't understand the point of the qualifier. I don't hear people refer to China as a de facto country so why use the qualifier for Taiwan?

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