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California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

latimes.com

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Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#121

Post by wtallis »

voakbasda wrote: post #93
michael1999 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand the statistics. Modern cars are so clean that the two-strokes powering lawn tools really are most of the smog in some cities. Getting rid of them will be a big improvement for many people.

Source?

From a CARB publication dated 2017 (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/small-engines-c...):

> In the early 2020s, however, total smog-forming emissions from small engines are projected to exceed those from passenger cars in the South Coast Air Basin because passenger car emissions will continue to decrease. By 2031, small engine emissions will be more than twice those from passenger cars.

And from the bill itself (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...):

>In 2020, California daily NOx and ROG emissions from SORE were higher than emissions from light-duty passenger cars. SORE emitted an average of 16.8 tons per day of NOx and 125 tons per day of ROG. Without further regulatory action, those emission levels are expected to increase with increasing numbers of SORE in California. Regulations of emissions from SORE have not been as stringent as regulations of other engines, and one hour of operation of a commercial leaf blower can emit as much ROG plus NOx as driving 1,100 miles in a new passenger vehicle.

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#122

Post by wtallis »

verisimi wrote: post #111
minitoar wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes it illegal for the corporations to sell those products. Not sure how that’s not “resolving the problem at source”.

Its obvious, no? The cost of new equipment is put on the consumer. The companies selling the (v. expensive) products, have a captive market. Why not transition this out slowly? This method forces people to spend a large amount to complete a task that they can do with their existing equipment.

> This method forces people to spend a large amount to complete a task that they can do with their existing equipment.

The law doesn't affect existing equipment.

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#123

Post by wtallis »

tomp wrote: post #83
toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is we shouldn’t be dumping air quality externalities on everyone to have attractive landscaping. Everyone is collectively used to burning fossil fuels without paying the true cost, and wrings their hands when they have to pay for their use case with zero emissions technology. The value of clean air is proven from scientific research on emissions. https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/air-polluti…

Maybe we should instead tax CO2/fossil fuels, and let people decide how they change their behaviour? (In particular, there is a usecase for artificially made fuel from air-captured CO2 - superior energy density and durability compared to batteries.)

This law isn't about reducing CO2 emissions. It's more specifically about reducing the forms of pollution that are disproportionately produced by small engines, which are often two-stroke and (AFAIK) never have catalytic converters. Taxing gasoline would be a failed attempt at a one size fits all solution, when there are very different categories of engines burning that fuel with drastically different emissions profiles.

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#124

Post by wrycoder »

tomp wrote: post #23
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #16

This only applies to sales of new equipment starting in 2024. Existing equipment isn't banned. Good move, IMO. Electric yard equipment is now good enough that gas alternatives aren't necessary in most cases. Lawn care professionals will have to make a moderate investment in batteries up front, but even those are becoming more affordable and easier to charge on the go. The combination of multi-battery chargers and veh…

> Electric yard equipment is now good enough that gas alternatives aren't necessary in most cases. Have you used any? The batteries last 100x less than the tiny amount of petrol you pour into. You have to recharge 3x just to mow the whole (moderately sized) lawn. Hopefully newer models are better, but given the slow progress of car batteries, I doubt they're much better.

I have a Milwaukee leaf blower with an M18 battery. It lasts about fifteen minutes. Then 45 min recharge.

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#126

Post by otterley »

mmcgaha wrote: post #85
otterley wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern battery technology is way better than it used to be. Today, you can use the same battery you use to power your cordless drill to power radios, vacuum cleaners, circular saws/table saws, chainsaws, trimmers, and even lawnmowers. DeWalt's 20V MAX system in particular is pretty neat.

These guys have a job that requires professional tools. They are not piddling around in the yard for a few hours on Saturday morning.

My contractors are already using these today and rave about them.

Also, the batteries are swappable. They’ll charge spares wherever they can, often on site where they can find an outlet.

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#127

Post by smileysteve »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #22
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #16

This only applies to sales of new equipment starting in 2024. Existing equipment isn't banned. Good move, IMO. Electric yard equipment is now good enough that gas alternatives aren't necessary in most cases. Lawn care professionals will have to make a moderate investment in batteries up front, but even those are becoming more affordable and easier to charge on the go. The combination of multi-battery chargers and veh…

There aren't any self propelled walk behind electric mowers that can handle non-flat ground.

this seems like a potential area for innovation; Self propelled consumer ICE lawnmowers are plagued by open differentials, front wheel drive, and a complex drive system (belt and clutch attaching to a constant speed motor)

Electrics, on the other hand, could easily have independent front and rear motors, if not each wheel; an independent ramping and traction control system from the main motor -- and even an isolated electrical system (via capacitor) such that grass load and wheel speed are indepedent.

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#128

Post by maxerickson »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #22
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #16

This only applies to sales of new equipment starting in 2024. Existing equipment isn't banned. Good move, IMO. Electric yard equipment is now good enough that gas alternatives aren't necessary in most cases. Lawn care professionals will have to make a moderate investment in batteries up front, but even those are becoming more affordable and easier to charge on the go. The combination of multi-battery chargers and veh…

There aren't any self propelled walk behind electric mowers that can handle non-flat ground.

Is that a large market segment?

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#129

Post by smileysteve »

teeray wrote: post #105
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently they bring their own fuel to worksites. What happens when there's no outlet for them to plug into? There are large numbers of landscaping scenarios where this will be the case. Do they bring a diesel generator? All of my yard tools, including my lawnmower, are electric. For reasons of both cost and power, I went with corded rather than battery powered. Battery tech is constantly improving and maybe at some…

I, for one, can’t wait to see the plug-in electric mowers with a mount for a generator.

While you jest, a generator running at a relatively constant speed and load (loads can be extracted to capacitors) should reduce noise, maintenance, and emissions (albeit, overall weight would increase and mechanical efficiency would decrease)

Re: California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers

#130

Post by giantg2 »

wtallis wrote: post #121
voakbasda wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

From a CARB publication dated 2017 ( https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/small-engines-c... ): > In the early 2020s, however, total smog-forming emissions from small engines are projected to exceed those from passenger cars in the South Coast Air Basin because passenger car emissions will continue to decrease. By 2031, small engine emissions will be more than twice those from passenger cars. And from the bil…

Ok, so that's a forecast. Not something happening now (that you claim).

And how about planes, generation plants, etc?

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