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Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

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Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#11

Post by roenxi »

AlexandrB wrote: post #7
roenxi wrote: post #4

We might look at these stats and think that they demonstrate a safe and effective vaccine. But there is still a very real risk that won't stop the government of Canada implementing a full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is, when and sets up all the necessary infrastructure to block someone's ability to travel.

This is a bizarre comment. What does the efficacy of Canada's improvised mixed vaccination "plan" have to do with implementing a dictatorship? And have you noticed how big and poorly connected rural Canada is? It's pretty easy to get out of range of cell towers and effectively not be trackable. How is the Canadian government going to cover the country with enough infrastructure to monitor where every citizen is in a…

1. They aren't implementing a dictatorship - Canada is a parliamentary democracy, they have regular elections.

2. The justification for the tracking system will be that the vaccine isn't good enough to protect people without mandatory vaccinations.

3. Why would there need to be tracking in remote parts of rural Canada? There is basically nobody there. It is rural. How many people do you even know who live outside the range of cell phone towers?

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#12

Post by abirkill »

refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

Out of the three vaccines in use in both Canada and Europe, it appears that Canada entered agreements as follows:

  Moderna: August 5th, 2020 [1]
  Pfizer: August 5th, 2020 [1]
  AstraZeneca: September 25th, 2020 [2]
Europe entered agreements as follows:

  Moderna: November 25th, 2020 [3]
  Pfizer: November 11th, 2020 [4]
  AstraZeneca: August 27th, 2020 [5]
I couldn't immediately find data on the quantities ordered, but this doesn't seem to support the claim that Canada was slow in placing orders?

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/innovation-science-economic-develop...

[2] https://pm.gc.ca/en/news/news-releases/2020/09/25/new-agreem...

[3] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_...

[4] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_...

[5] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_...

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#13

Post by sandworm101 »

refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

>> Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines.

No. Canada made some bad bets on where they would be getting vaccine. Canada assumed that a particular person would still be in the white house and that early US vaccines would not be available for export. So Canada threw in largely with European suppliers. That gamble was wrong. The certain person lost and US vaccination rates were lower then expected. US vaccines were available for export earlier than predicted. Canada had not pre-ordered sufficient US vaccines. A mistake? Yes, but still a reasonable judgement call given the US political situation at the time.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#14

Post by jszymborski »

defaultname wrote: post #6
refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

"Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines" Canada was one of the first countries to pre-order vaccines, signing massive agreements with just about every candidate maker. I'm aware of literally a single deal happening with another country prior to Canada's orders. What thwarted Canada's efforts was that the US defacto nationalized the medical establishment in that country, while Cana…

Speaking of nationalising the medical industry:

Fun fact, Canada was the home of Connaught labs, a publicly owned laboratory which was the first lab to produce the Salk's Polio vaccine, and went on to produce the Smallpox vaccine.

In the 1970s, however, Canada went on a privatizing spree (incidentally, the same gov't that ratified NAFTA), and Connaught was privatised and sold many time since.

More info here https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2020/03/11/the-...

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#15

Post by roenxi »

klyrs wrote: post #10
roenxi wrote: post #4

We might look at these stats and think that they demonstrate a safe and effective vaccine. But there is still a very real risk that won't stop the government of Canada implementing a full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is, when and sets up all the necessary infrastructure to block someone's ability to travel.

> ...full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is... Got any sources indicating that this is in the works?

They're setting up restrictions on public (and private) transport [0]. Work is being done to support using OHS as a lever to push vaccination [1] which is going to require centralised databases integrated into business processes. Toronto is setting up systems to verify that everyone is vaccinated at gatherings of 1,000+ people [2].

This is setting the infrastructure to implement a social credit system. It is a small step from here to to full thing. The intent is the same and the tools are similar.

[0] https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/manda...

[1] https://www.ohscanada.com/opinions/mandatory-vaccination-pol...

[2] https://www.hrreporter.com/opinion/canadian-hr-law/the-movem...

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#17

Post by refurb »

jszymborski wrote: post #14
defaultname wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines" Canada was one of the first countries to pre-order vaccines, signing massive agreements with just about every candidate maker. I'm aware of literally a single deal happening with another country prior to Canada's orders. What thwarted Canada's efforts was that the US defacto nationalized the medical establishment in that country, while Cana…

Speaking of nationalising the medical industry: Fun fact, Canada was the home of Connaught labs, a publicly owned laboratory which was the first lab to produce the Salk's Polio vaccine, and went on to produce the Smallpox vaccine. In the 1970s, however, Canada went on a privatizing spree (incidentally, the same gov't that ratified NAFTA), and Connaught was privatised and sold many time since. More info here https://w…

Canadian pharmaceutical R&D and manufacturing is almost entirely gone at this point.

A big part of that was little interest in supporting the industry from the government.

Apparently a vaccine manufacturer approached the government a while back and got a tepid response so decided to invest elsewhere.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#19

Post by defaultname »

sandworm101 wrote: post #13
refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

>> Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. No. Canada made some bad bets on where they would be getting vaccine. Canada assumed that a particular person would still be in the white house and that early US vaccines would not be available for export. So Canada threw in largely with European suppliers. That gamble was wrong. The certain person lost and US vaccination rates were lower then expected. US vaccine…

Canada's two biggest suppliers by far have been Pfizer and Moderna. Canada doesn't dictate where they supply the product from.

The US nationalized production in that government decree made it illegal to ship to anyone else unless US contracts had been satisfied in full (NOTE: I am not judging this at all. The merits of it are arguable, but it does point out a weakness in a reliance on free trade). The change of government didn't change this an iota.

The defense production act dictated that 100% of production was for the US until the government said otherwise. Moderna and Pfizer were both forced to supply Canada from the European factories as a result, even long after US vaccine manufacturing far exceeded consumption.

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