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A new biography of John von Neumann

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Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really arguable that without his early advantage Von Neumann would not have been able to achieve what he did. Something can be the product of many things, as I'm sure you've learnt in elementary school. As far as Ramanujan, it's not arguable either that if he had been recognized early and given proper opportunities, he would have been even more prolific and have made even greater contributions. It took him 1…

If you think that a very poor person can rise to a Von Neumann calibre genius, then we have no disagreement. I agree with you that having successful parents can only help the situation. "As for your edit, extreme intelligence is not really correlated to income." Ok, the marginal correlation breaks down at the extremes. But it's still the case that intelligence and income are correlated, so smarter kids are more likel…

The marginal correlation actually starts to break down gradually just after the median.

A very poor person could rise up to the status of Neumann, they'd just need significantly more innate intelligence, which is a very tall order.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#92
Hi, I'd like to make a few comments on von Neumann considering I've spent some time reading around about him.

First of all, on the biography. So far for me the biographies written about von Neumann have two key problems to me:

1) They avoid his mathematical work and focus on his work in game theory, computing, nuclear weapons, etc. I find this a bit problematic because despite all his other achievements, von Neumann was fundamentally a mathematician who applied his skills in mathematics and logic to other fields to great success, however before all this he first made many substantial contributions to pure mathematics. Now the question is how can one author cover these broad areas that von Neumann contributed to at a reasonable level? I'm not really sure it can be done, even von Neumann's colleagues themselves weren't fully aware of the extent of his work. For example I remember reading some interview of one where they said he never made any contributions to number theory, yet von Neumann early in his career did publish at least two papers on the field, one on algebraic number theory and another on transcendental number theory. So perhaps multiple authors, each covering their specialty would work better if they can make their chapters weave together nicely. Another problem is what level should it be. I personally would like it to be around STEM major level mathematics so you can properly introduce some concepts however I understand most authors wouldn't do this because it decreases their possible audience.

2) Not much research is done into what technical work he did in defence and for private companies (particularly IBM). From the biographies I've read they all happily cover how von Neumann was this greatly respected figure and how he lead this committee and that committee and how on his deathbed he had the chiefs of all the armed forces and the chiefs of staff there too but that isn't really covering the actual technical work he did there (a good reference for his government consultancies is `A Fiery Peace in a Cold War`). He obviously consulted widely in the military, CIA, NSA, etc, military establishment in general but in terms of technical work not much is there, presumably because all the records are hidden or classified. I can understand why some of his work even today might remain that way (particularly his work on nuclear weapons) but I've yet to have seen anyone try send a FOI request to various agencies and see what they can fish out given that he died over 60 years ago. He did spend a lot of time on these things post WW2 so it would be interesting to see what he did actually contribute to beyond his position on committees and advocacy.

I notice several other comments on this page I think I can make a educated comment on as well.

First about his views on communism. As a child in Hungary von Neumann lived through several revolutions, one communist and another antisemitic. He was at risk of attack from both groups, from the communists for being part of a wealthy family and from antisemites and far righters for being a Jew. Safe to say I can imagine this ordeal while he was a teenager didn't leave a good taste in his mouth, especially as he had to move around the country to avoid being attacked and potentially killed. His remark about bombing them at a certain o'clock was from 1950, just as communism was being spread quite forcefully through violence around Europe and you can imagine why he wanted to prevent this from happening, especially considering the USA would probably lose a conventional war at this time, however they still did maintain a monopoly on nuclear weapons (for a short period). I would also like to note that for whatever reason he seemed to believe nuclear war was inevitable, and made an admission on his death bed that he believed nuclear war was "absolutely certain" to occur in the future and that everyone would die from it. This might help explain his comments if he sincerely believed nuclear war was inevitable anyway (luckily it wasn't). I would also note that he visited Moscow for a conference in 1935 and I'm sure he had many friends there, so views that he wanted to exterminate civilians for the sake of it or whatever would also be clearly wrong.

Second on the Kyoto scenario. Despite wikipedia claiming so, scanning Macrae's biography shows no indication that von Neumann had Kyoto as his first choice, but rather one of 4 cities he voted for. From what I understand the targeting of Kyoto was first added for technical reasons, and did in fact have strategic value, however the targeting committee did also note that perhaps a city full of intellectuals would more likely appreciate the significance of the bomb and hence advocate for a more peaceful solution (http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/08/08/kyoto-misconceptio...).

Third on the good upbringing argument. A good way to see how special von Neumann was compared to other mathematicians and scientists is to get their opinions themselves, unfortunately most are long dead however several history projects do include information on this. This [1] is a good example. Basically everyone who mentions von Neumann notes that his speed and rapidity is bar absolutely none, however one of them (Edward McShane) does quote fellow Princeton mathematician Solomon Lefschetz in saying that they paid too much respect to von Neumann because of his upbringing and in particular he had the finest tutoring by Hungarian mathematicians as a child. However a counterexample to this is simple. If it was just that, then why has no one like von Neumann come up in the past 100+ years? Especially considering how material conditions and access to information have only improved since the early 1900s when von Neumann grew up.

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20011126182532/http://infoshare1...

Overall I think von Neumann is someone particularly unique. Not because of his creativity, nor because of insight, sure he may have had these qualities but so did many other people. What is unique about him is his speed. Looking at some of these interviews on several occasions it seems that von Neumann was literally making up new proofs for some theorem on the spot. Whether he thought about them beforehand or whether he did truly make them up on the spot is of course in question, but it seems he did it often enough one might could not be blamed for believing that the latter version is what he really did. I would also note a strange fascination that HN seems to have with von Neumann, as I see him here quite regularly and I can understand for some the worship is excessive, so it is important to note even someone of his caliber can make mistakes, the most important one I believe is already mentioned in this thread which is the mathematicization of the measurement problem. Everyone can make mistakes, and absolutely no one is immune from this.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard lots of good things about this book. But I gave up after a few chapters. I just didn't get on with the author's writing style.

To be completely honest, the beginning is a bit tough. IIRC it focuses mostly on Niels Bohr, his life, and his philosophical approach to quantum physics. Once the book centers itself around Leo Szilard, things start to pick up. Having said this, I agree with the previous comment. The book is amazing. Disclaimer: I listened to it in audiobook format through Audible

I discovered this book several years ago thanks to someone here on HN. I did the audiobook version and found it gripping.

Bought the paperback version so I could refer back to favorite parts.

Rhodes' personal story is really interesting. CSPAN did a great interview with him many years ago - highly recommended.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?155692-1/depth-richard-rhodes

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#94
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way once. But not any more. Some people might do or were something that I won't like. I have learned to not let that influence me in way, and be comfortably ambivalent. I especially felt bad after I came to know that Richard Feynman slept with many of his friends' wives and tried to sleep with even more of them. He burnt a lot of bridges this way. One Physicist had told me that Feynman hit on his…

I mean you could appreciate his achievements but it does seem weird to have a photo of him on the wall, for some women it might be a red flag

God, what's with all this silent judgement? Have you ever heard of a 'conversation-starter'? How about you ask before you assume?

Having a picture of von Neumann is in no way a red flag as much as having a picture of, or the name of a particular past US President would.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#95
post #7

One of the most interesting non-fiction books I have read is Richard Rhodes' "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". It talks about how the majority of the brains behind the Manhattan Project came from one school in Budapest, Hungary called the 'Minta School'. John von Neumann being one of those geniuses. [1] The Making of the Atomic Bomb, Richard Rhodes https://www.amazon.com/Making-of-Atomic-Bomb-audiobook/dp/B0...

[deleted]

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#96

John von Neumann was certainly involved in a lot of scientific discoveries, but from the review this looks more like a hagiography with a goal of rehabilitating the reputation of an incredibly gifted scientist/mathematician whose coziness with the military-industrial complex remains controversial to this day. 'John von Neumann, the theorist of mutual assured destruction', is how many still view his record. John von N…

You have to place JVN in his time on this issue. If you were a person with first hand knowledge of the atomic weapons program, access to the highest levels of national security, and a normal person's view of foreign policy (as in you were not a diplomat or experienced on the world stage) it's a coin flip whether you would have argued for restraint or first strike.

I've been learning about the Dulles brothers recently and the most hawkish Americans of this time period were a lot more hawkish than the neocons of today. I am very glad that cooler heads prevailed but I don't know that it should be such a knock on his reputation that he was in a different camp.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#97
post #75

John von Neumann was certainly involved in a lot of scientific discoveries, but from the review this looks more like a hagiography with a goal of rehabilitating the reputation of an incredibly gifted scientist/mathematician whose coziness with the military-industrial complex remains controversial to this day. 'John von Neumann, the theorist of mutual assured destruction', is how many still view his record. John von N…

Why does the first part need to be rehabilitated? With whom is it controversial? I've never heard of this controversy before. First, a decapitating strike against Soviet Union /could/ have made sense given the information at the time - imagine you could decapitate Germany in 1935, how many lives would that have saved? Hindsight is 20/20, before that you couldn't be 100% sure that one of the two architects of WWII was…

There would be no decapitation. If the allies were capable of surgically removing a government they would have done it with Germany or Japan.

The prevailing military doctrine at the time was ‘total war’, and it was implemented with strategic bombing campaigns. The weapons were so inaccurate that they simply kept dropping bombs until everything was destroyed.

Any war on the Soviet Union, either nuclear or with conventional firebombing would have caused massive civilian casualties.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#98
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anyone in this comment thread implying that he's inhuman or a supreme being. It seems like you may be projecting the insecurities of your own background into the discussion. I'm occasionally envious of people with great achievements who had a "privileged" background, but it's certainly not the first thing I point out when their names are brought up.

I didn't point it out as the first thing when his name was brought up. But apparently being Von Neumann is sufficient for your upbringing not to matter, hence why I replied. There are no shortages of people in these threads who genuinely believe that Neumann was supremely intelligent, beyond the conception of regular people. I'm sure you'll find them. It's not even unique to Neumann.

What about his upbringing gave him the ability to recall pages from books he’d read decades later?

Nothing. They put effort into his education because of his brilliancy, and your standard Jewish-American household could do the same thing.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He thought (very wrongly) that coexistence with the Soviets was impossible and that they had to be eliminated as soon as possible. Jeez. To drop all jokes, this guy is a lunatic. I'm not sure why people aren't pointing to this as a decisive criticism, since no amount of genius can excuse the idea that civilians need to be attacked or that populations can't coexist and need to be exterminated. This is the first I've…

> My "coziness" with the military industrial complex would be to help design weapons using AI. I'm simply fine with that. I wouldn't be advocating for the extermination of a population! So you'd be fine helping them design weapons that could exterminate a populace but you wouldn't advocate actually using them?

I’ve thought carefully about it for a long time. I still change my mind from time to time, but currently, the view is that we need to own the space before others do.

Suppose you had the option to help discover and design the first nukes. Would it have been better to refuse, and wait for Russia to design them? The early efforts were crucial.

If it were possible to ban AI weapons across all countries for the rest of eternity, I would of course refuse to work on them. But that’s a bit like designing a society with the assumption everyone will be honest.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that a very poor person can rise to a Von Neumann calibre genius, then we have no disagreement. I agree with you that having successful parents can only help the situation. "As for your edit, extreme intelligence is not really correlated to income." Ok, the marginal correlation breaks down at the extremes. But it's still the case that intelligence and income are correlated, so smarter kids are more likel…

The marginal correlation actually starts to break down gradually just after the median. A very poor person could rise up to the status of Neumann, they'd just need significantly more innate intelligence, which is a very tall order.

  "they'd just need significantly more innate intelligence, which is a very tall order."
I dispute this. Ramanujan is by all accounts on Von Neumann's level and so his example seems to disprove this statement. Or maybe you think Ramanujan has "significantly more innate intelligence" than Von Neumann? It's possible, but without evidence, and a bit farfetched.

I think wealth helps but through a different mechanism to what you're thinking. Avoiding malnutrition is the big one. A secondary point is avoiding the need to work and being able to focus on intellectual passions, which many average-wealth people can do. Adding more money to the picture doesn't help beyond a baseline. Ramanujan was fairly poor but still had enough family wealth to be able to eat enough food and dedicate a lot of time to his passion.

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