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A new biography of John von Neumann

economist.com

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Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#81

Post by kgwgk »

n4r9 wrote: post #36
raincom wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When one uses an existing word, it carries a lot of epistemic and ontological baggage, thereby causing trouble to those who are new to the domain. That’s why scientists go for a linguistic reform: invent a new word during a conceptual or scientific revolution. That’s how the word “Oxygen” replaced the old “Phlogiston”.

When defining statistical entropy in his Cambridge lecture course on Coding and Cryptography, Thomas Korner adds the following footnote: "It is unwise for the beginner and may or may not be fruitless for the expert to seek a link with entropy in physics." https://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~twk/Shan.pdf

The link was established quite early and it wasn’t fruitless:

https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/theory.1.pdf

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#82

Post by pribalta »

hermitcrab wrote: post #67
gjkood wrote: post #7

One of the most interesting non-fiction books I have read is Richard Rhodes' "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". It talks about how the majority of the brains behind the Manhattan Project came from one school in Budapest, Hungary called the 'Minta School'. John von Neumann being one of those geniuses. [1] The Making of the Atomic Bomb, Richard Rhodes https://www.amazon.com/Making-of-Atomic-Bomb-audiobook/dp/B0...

I heard lots of good things about this book. But I gave up after a few chapters. I just didn't get on with the author's writing style.

To be completely honest, the beginning is a bit tough. IIRC it focuses mostly on Niels Bohr, his life, and his philosophical approach to quantum physics.

Once the book centers itself around Leo Szilard, things start to pick up. Having said this, I agree with the previous comment. The book is amazing. Disclaimer: I listened to it in audiobook format through Audible

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#84

Post by [deleted] »

slibhb wrote: post #76
photochemsyn wrote: post #24

John von Neumann was certainly involved in a lot of scientific discoveries, but from the review this looks more like a hagiography with a goal of rehabilitating the reputation of an incredibly gifted scientist/mathematician whose coziness with the military-industrial complex remains controversial to this day. 'John von Neumann, the theorist of mutual assured destruction', is how many still view his record. John von N…

> John von Neumann's record illustrates why brilliant scientists may not be the best architects of foreign policy. In particular, von Neumann's belief in the inevitability of nuclear war led him to call for a first strike against Soviet cities before they could develop a nuclear arsenal. This is a rather difficult political-moral-ethical position to rehabilitate. One also gets the sense that a JvN was a bit stingy wi…

[deleted]

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#85

Post by emmelaich »

sudosysgen wrote: post #47
sillysaurusx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I already said, I know nothing about Von Neumann's history. You'll have to fill me in before I can answer that question, since you didn't really say what happened. My criticism had a source which clearly explained what he did and why it had a negative impact. You may want to do the same thing, or I think no one will be impressed with your claim that Neumann personally was the decisive factor in killing a bunch of…

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

I would love to hear of any exchange between Einstein and Von Neumann. Einstein was famously contemptuous of soldiers.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#86

Post by emmelaich »

sudosysgen wrote: post #47
sillysaurusx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I already said, I know nothing about Von Neumann's history. You'll have to fill me in before I can answer that question, since you didn't really say what happened. My criticism had a source which clearly explained what he did and why it had a negative impact. You may want to do the same thing, or I think no one will be impressed with your claim that Neumann personally was the decisive factor in killing a bunch of…

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

> ...as to why nuking the USSR would have had a huge negative impact.

Japan has done ok.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#87

Post by misbyrming »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #54
sudosysgen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

> He thought (very wrongly) that coexistence with the Soviets was impossible and that they had to be eliminated as soon as possible. Jeez. To drop all jokes, this guy is a lunatic. I'm not sure why people aren't pointing to this as a decisive criticism, since no amount of genius can excuse the idea that civilians need to be attacked or that populations can't coexist and need to be exterminated. This is the first I've…

> My "coziness" with the military industrial complex would be to help design weapons using AI. I'm simply fine with that. I wouldn't be advocating for the extermination of a population!

So you'd be fine helping them design weapons that could exterminate a populace but you wouldn't advocate actually using them?

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#88

Post by WalterBright »

rg111 wrote: post #68
WalterBright wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Feynman slept with many of his friends' wives and tried to sleep with even more of them. If you're going to indict people for having immoral sex, you'll have to indict probably 90%. If you include trying to have immoral sex, how many would pass your test?

For me personally it's not sex or even immoral sex, it's betraying one's friends. I know the wives were equally guilty. He seduced but never ever forced to anyone's knowledge. He often committed these acts of adultery when he was welcomed as a guest at someone's home . Having adventures on the bed with the wives of the people who invited you in their homes- pretty low to me. The women were adult and consenting, but i…

This kind of amoral sexual behavior among charismatic celebrities is commonplace.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#89

Post by sillysaurusx »

philwelch wrote: post #73
sudosysgen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

When he made those comments, Stalin was still alive. You have the benefit of 70 years of hindsight and the knowledge that the Soviet Union moderated after Stalin’s death and collapsed entirely of its own accord a few decades later. Additionally, H-bombs didn’t even exist in 1950. A nuclear strike on the Soviet Union in 1950 would have been devastating but not as catastrophic as you would imagine today. It would have…

> If the Nazis won WWII, don’t you think it would be worth at least considering using nuclear weapons in a war to destroy their regime before they developed a competitive nuclear arsenal of their own? Or would you have argued for coexistence with them?

That's a fascinating question. I'm not sure what to say.

EDIT: Ah, my response is "That's an unfair comparison." The context was that Von Neumann was advocating the extermination of the Russian population, not their regime. I agree that it would be worth considering the strategic options at the time, but that the strategic options should not include the extermination of the entire German population.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#90

Post by sudosysgen »

emmelaich wrote: post #86
sudosysgen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

> ...as to why nuking the USSR would have had a huge negative impact. Japan has done ok.

Japan got two small nukes, the proposals were for ~300 significantly bigger ones.
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