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Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

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Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#91

Anyone else love the look of DOS GUIs? https://img.itch.zone/aW1hZ2UvMTIyODU3OC83MTY0MTEyLnBuZw==/o... They have such a cozy feel, reminds me of simpler times. It would be cool if there were a CSS framework where you could make webpages like that.

I absolutely do. I'm 100% aware that it's the nostalgia talking, but I don't care, I unapologetically love them.

For context, the first computer we got at home was a PC at some point in '94 or '95. We had MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11. Some years later we moved into Windows 95. While I didn't really use these kind of GUIs (DOSShell and so on) as often as I would like, I always thought they were very pleasant to use. There is something about that DOS font that makes me happy each time I see it, and there is a certain feeling of being a stereotypical movie-style hacker when you use these instead of modern, actually graphical UIs. And yes, the reminiscence of simpler times with simple software, way before the surveillance capitalism and the brutal omnipresence of ads, is easy to appreciate.

The nice thing is that early versions of Windows supported these GUIs as well. So, a few years later, during my degree in Computer Engineering, I learned some x86 assembly (using Turbo Assembler as a compiler); this was during the early 00s, and we still used EDIT.com as the main text editor, although there were some others available. I loved it since the first day, both in concept (super low level programming with direct access to the hardware, managing interruptions and so on) and in execution (everything was in that text mode I loved, since modern Windows and their restrictions didn't play nicely with such low-level programming). I learned a lot from Ralf Brown's Interrup.lst, and wrote a few simple GUIs of my own, using box drawing characters and all that. Aside from those I wrote for academic work, I mostly spent a lot of time creating a silly GUI that allowed you to modify the look of the console. There were a few resolutions available, from 40x25 to 132x60, and you could change the colours of the text, the background and the border (yes, there is a border, which you can set to a different colour than the background. And my program could get 2^18=262144 colours available, not just 16! Although 16 was the max simultaneous on-screen limit IIRC), plus the font (I was able to add an edition screen where you could see the aspect of all 256 characters, yet I could use box drawing and so on for the interface in this screen. Did you know that DOS allowed two different sets of characters in screen at the same time?). There were some other additions like pixel-level scroll as opposed to the usual line-level scroll, and background "music" using the PC speaker. It didn't have any practical purpose aside from these silly customisations (which, in the case of Windows, went away when you closed the windows, and some times, also when you moved from full screen to a window), but man, did I have fun coding it. It's still one of my best memories of programming, nearly 15 years later.

Then, in 2009, my last Windows 98-capable computer stopped working, and current hardware only supported Windows XP and newer, so all of this fun basically stopped being possible (especially considering that basically all state of the art hardware was already 64 bits, and 16-bit applications like EDIT.com weren't supported any more). With emulators it's not the same, because I know I'm not really accessing the low-level hardware registers. By that time I already had a job and there was less time for this kind of hobbies, so I eventually stopped. Currently my recreational programming is mostly oriented towards math (Project Euler and so on), which is very different, but I still remember those days very fondly. I still have all that code somewhere.

Yeah, it's all nostalgia, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hit hard.

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#92

Still don’t quite get the DOS nostalgia. Individual games were good, but the whole ecosystem was finicky and crash-prone by the early- to mid-90s, not to mention deeply ugly (ALL CAPS console, lousy inconsistent GUIs, unnaturally short filenames, etc.). My friends and I couldn’t wait to run Unix, NeXTSTEP, hell even classic MacOS. We only ran DOS/Windows because that’s all we had. Though don’t get me wrong, we still…

It's just a hobby and that's really it. The irrelevancy is the appeal. It's become something mostly disconnected from everything else. A world of computing that's not focused around networking or communications where the relationship is between the user and the machine as opposed to the machine being a vessel for a relationship with others. It is inherently a different kind of computing with a different kind of perfo…

You nailed it. My attraction to retro-computing is a mixture of nostalgia and a desire to unplug and go "off the grid". Early computers (DOS, Mac, C64, Apple II, BBC Micro, etc.) had a much more intimate feel than today's omni-connected communications devices. It's kind of like reading a book vs watching a live stream (with busy chat scrolling by).

Another aspect to it is the low latency you get when using a machine with very few layers of abstraction between the software and the (usually CRT) display. Using something like WordPerfect for DOS is a dramatically different experience than modern MS Word or Google Docs. Vastly fewer visual distractions as well.

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#93
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, the Borland Grahics Interface (BGI) style TUIs were kind of awful. I hated the Borland Turbo C IDE in no small part because of that style TUI. It just wasted so much precious character space on TUI frames and other decorations. More of my fond TUI memories from that era were the bespoke ones in the demo/art/music/bbs scenes. Those in many cases were still character based but seemed to make better use of the scree…

I love all things text mode. For anyone searching for the Borland style text interface, it was actually called TurboVision, not BGI (which was a generic graphics library). TurboVision (and many GUIs of the time) largely followed the Common User Interface (CUI) spec by IBM for its interactions in text mode. It is fair to say there was a lot of screen space devoted to borders and such, especially in 80x25 mode, but tha…

Only if you were an English speaking user

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#94

Still don’t quite get the DOS nostalgia. Individual games were good, but the whole ecosystem was finicky and crash-prone by the early- to mid-90s, not to mention deeply ugly (ALL CAPS console, lousy inconsistent GUIs, unnaturally short filenames, etc.). My friends and I couldn’t wait to run Unix, NeXTSTEP, hell even classic MacOS. We only ran DOS/Windows because that’s all we had. Though don’t get me wrong, we still…

WAT?! You didn't enjoy running QEMM, running the optimizer to figure out the best order to load things. Configuring EMS and XMS memory? Editing your config.sys and autoexec.bat. Manually setting dip switches and setting pins to try to get your cards to each have a unique IRQ

I certainly have some fond memories but I'm pretty happy with modern UIs

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#95
post #27

Anyone else love the look of DOS GUIs? https://img.itch.zone/aW1hZ2UvMTIyODU3OC83MTY0MTEyLnBuZw==/o... They have such a cozy feel, reminds me of simpler times. It would be cool if there were a CSS framework where you could make webpages like that.

Eh, the Borland Grahics Interface (BGI) style TUIs were kind of awful. I hated the Borland Turbo C IDE in no small part because of that style TUI. It just wasted so much precious character space on TUI frames and other decorations. More of my fond TUI memories from that era were the bespoke ones in the demo/art/music/bbs scenes. Those in many cases were still character based but seemed to make better use of the scree…

Compared with modern UIs where you don't know where an UI element begins or ends or with gray font on gray background (or like this text field on my phone where the cursor does not advances when i press space) those UIs were a blessing.

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#96
post #27

Anyone else love the look of DOS GUIs? https://img.itch.zone/aW1hZ2UvMTIyODU3OC83MTY0MTEyLnBuZw==/o... They have such a cozy feel, reminds me of simpler times. It would be cool if there were a CSS framework where you could make webpages like that.

Eh, the Borland Grahics Interface (BGI) style TUIs were kind of awful. I hated the Borland Turbo C IDE in no small part because of that style TUI. It just wasted so much precious character space on TUI frames and other decorations. More of my fond TUI memories from that era were the bespoke ones in the demo/art/music/bbs scenes. Those in many cases were still character based but seemed to make better use of the scree…

> style TUIs were kind of awful.

You might have disliked them but they were far from awful. They were some of the cleanest TUIs ever designed.

The other screenshot you shared isn’t a TUI by the way. It’s a GUI. It just happens it runs atop of DOS (much like early versions of Windows did). So it’s not really comparable to TurboVision.

Regarding TurboVision, I suspect you might be in the minority with your dislike for them too. Which I guess just goes to prove that everyone will have different preferences and thus you can’t please everyone all of the time.

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OH GOD NO. Man, I hated all that stuff at the time. If you're stuck in text mode, just be text. Don't try to mimic a GUI; it just looks weird and generally works poorly. A web site that imposed this sort of interface would be a site I visited ONCE.

Lmao I like how saying "no" got you downvoted. Express an opinion about a purely subjective thing that others don't like and you get downvoted. Come on HN, you can do better.

Commenter could do better than just writing an emotional burp.

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#98

Still don’t quite get the DOS nostalgia. Individual games were good, but the whole ecosystem was finicky and crash-prone by the early- to mid-90s, not to mention deeply ugly (ALL CAPS console, lousy inconsistent GUIs, unnaturally short filenames, etc.). My friends and I couldn’t wait to run Unix, NeXTSTEP, hell even classic MacOS. We only ran DOS/Windows because that’s all we had. Though don’t get me wrong, we still…

There were entire communities based around specific DOS games and applications. Notably: ZZT, MegaZeux, a slew of abandonware games, QBASIC, and so on. A lot of people discovered just how limited DOS was because they were fascinated by computers, but DOS (and likely Windows on top of it) was the only thing they had at the time. Yet they wanted to push the boundaries and ended up finding the ceiling. At least that's b…

For creative pursuits, limitations can counter-intuitively be good to have. Not only do you learn a lot (and have fun) when you're forced to understand a system well to work around its limitations, but it removes a lot of the distraction of choice ("option paralysis"), so you make creative decisions instead of technical ones.

That's why it was all so much fun. I had so much fun that I'm still actively maintaining one of those originally DOS QuickBasic game engines -- it was ported to FreeBASIC and modern OSes long ago, but it's still got that DOS look and various limitations.

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#99

Still don’t quite get the DOS nostalgia. Individual games were good, but the whole ecosystem was finicky and crash-prone by the early- to mid-90s, not to mention deeply ugly (ALL CAPS console, lousy inconsistent GUIs, unnaturally short filenames, etc.). My friends and I couldn’t wait to run Unix, NeXTSTEP, hell even classic MacOS. We only ran DOS/Windows because that’s all we had. Though don’t get me wrong, we still…

WAT?! You didn't enjoy running QEMM, running the optimizer to figure out the best order to load things. Configuring EMS and XMS memory? Editing your config.sys and autoexec.bat. Manually setting dip switches and setting pins to try to get your cards to each have a unique IRQ I certainly have some fond memories but I'm pretty happy with modern UIs

On the surface of it, I look back fondly at those times. It was certainly a good environment to learn about computer basics.

But realistically, I also recall getting pretty frustrated at times. Such as when I just wanted to play Wing Commander: Privateer, but had to spend hours messing with memory settings in `autoexec.bat`/`config.sys` and rebooting just to get it to run. And then I had to spend hours more fiddling with the memory settings, IRQs and the like, just so I could get sound from my Gravis Ultrasound/Soundblaster instead of the PC speaker.

But still, I can't help but feel nostalgic!

Re: Dos-like: Engine for making things with a MS-DOS feel, but for modern platforms

#100

Windows 10 warns that burn.exe contains Trojan:Win32/Wacatac.B!ml. I'm sure it's fine but Windows doesn't let it run. The demos that work are stunning and inspiring.

Microsoft Defender is really bad at false positives. I think especially the "!ml" ones – I believe that means it is using heuristics rather than a direct signature match. I have my own parental control software I wrote. (Maybe one of these days I will open source it, but not in its current state.) I wanted to use text-to-speech to send audio messages to our son ("Your time is up in five minutes!" kind of thing). Wind…

I have been using Linux my whole life. Some years ago I tried distributing some of my tools to windows users. The main feedback I got was hate because I appearantly packaged a virus. It worked on my VMs but not on some others. Most tools have been packaged ruby interpreters with attached scripts. Nothing to weird either.

I have not tried releasing anything for Windows ever again.

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