Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement • Hacker News Board

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#131

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #128

rsj_hn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be able to cite the relevant passage in the accession treaty that Poland signed to support that assertion. You can read the treaty here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/defaul... Take all the time you need. You'll find lots of specific agreements on wheat subsidies, travel restrictions, etc. But a general claim that EU courts can override Polish courts or EU law to supercede Polish la…

Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.

Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait.

Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU, whether the member states are living up to their agreement. They do not directly rule on laws or override laws in the national parliaments.

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#132

Post by seoaeu » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:40 AM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #12

munk-a wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - but it's the process of making the world a better place. The more these tax havens get shut down the fewer (and riskier) places that corporations have to shelter their revenue.

Yeah because governments use those funds so effectively. It’s why when I look around the U.S. at the trillions we spent over the last two decades and I see... well looks pretty much the same as the 90s honestly

By what metric? The crime rate is down and the stock market is up. Not to mention that given the scale of the country, just continuing the same level of government services costs trillions

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#133

Post by fnord77 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #23

jgeada wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they tax individuals on our revenues and not our profits …

There are definitely expenses you can incur that result in either a taxable income reduction or a tax deduction - there aren't many of them (most individual expenditures aren't considered expenses in the way that profits are measured) - but there are some. As an example in Canada one newly recognized tax exemption for 2020 was a 400$ flat tax deduction for remote working. You can argue that more tax burden should be…

In the US they’re getting fewer and fewer. Property tax + mortgage interest combined is now capped at $10k. This was no doubt to punish blue state residents where property values are higher

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#134

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:43 AM UTC

weakwarm wrote: post #130

rsj_hn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be able to cite the relevant passage in the accession treaty that Poland signed to support that assertion. You can read the treaty here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/defaul... Take all the time you need. You'll find lots of specific agreements on wheat subsidies, travel restrictions, etc. But a general claim that EU courts can override Polish courts or EU law to supercede Polish la…

ARTICLE 1 1. The Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Slovenia and the Slovak Republic hereby become members of the European Union and Parties to the Treaties on which the Union is founded as amended or supplemented. 2. The conditions of admission and t…

None of that claims that EU laws override Polish laws or that EU judges can override Polish judges when interpreting Polish law.

From the treaty: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

"To the extent that a provision of the Charter refers to national laws and practices, it shall only apply to Poland or the United Kingdom to the extent that the rights or principles that it contains are recognised in the law or practices of Poland or of the United Kingdom."

Rather, it is an agreement in which national parliaments agree to pass national laws in harmony with certain EU laws, or face some penalties. The reason why national parliaments need to do that is because national laws and national constitutions as interpreted by national judges remain the supreme law of the land, and so this treaty was required in order to provide a framework to urge members states to harmonize or give up various EU funding perks.

Look, I get that a lot of people want a Federal Europe, but you can't get there by pretending you've already arrived and being outraged at those who point out you haven't. The EU as presently constituted is basically the articles of confederation, where states need to pass local versions of EU laws, rather than something like a true Federal Europe.

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#135

Post by pavlov » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:45 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #131

pavlov wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.

Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU,…

From the text of the Treaty of Lisbon:

17. Declaration concerning primacy

The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law.

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#136

Post by krastanov » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #131

pavlov wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.

Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU,…

You are confusing EU regulations and EU directives. One is automatically binding.

Read these two pages. They are fairly clear, contain references to primary sources, and disagree with your claims:

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-la...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM...

Article 288 Treaty on Functioning of the EU

(ex Article 249 TEC)

To exercise the Union's competences, the institutions shall adopt regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions.

A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States. [...]

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#137

Post by LudwigNagasena » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 2:55 AM UTC

harikb wrote: post #3

threatofrain wrote: post #2

> Global minimum effective corporation tax rate of 15% for multinationals with revenues in excess of €750 million > No change to the 12.5% rate for businesses with revenues below €750 million

Hopefully 15% is for ( Total - 750 )

Companies generally aren’t taxed on revenue.

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#138

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #134

weakwarm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARTICLE 1 1. The Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Slovenia and the Slovak Republic hereby become members of the European Union and Parties to the Treaties on which the Union is founded as amended or supplemented. 2. The conditions of admission and t…

None of that claims that EU laws override Polish laws or that EU judges can override Polish judges when interpreting Polish law. From the treaty: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... "To the extent that a provision of the Charter refers to national laws and practices, it shall only apply to Poland or the United Kingdom to the extent that the rights or principles that it contains are recogni…

"the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law."

This does not read ambiguously. You asked for a citation, it was given, and now you're ignoring it. Unless you specifically show why this doesn't say what we think it does, you've lost your audience.

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#139

Post by _3u10 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 3:04 AM UTC

collectedparts wrote: post #42

My take on this is that Ireland is now willing to come into compliance because post-Brexit, they now have a monopoly on "urban core that could sustain an HQ for multinationals in a natively-English-speaking country in the EU." In other words, they relied on tax advantages as a differentiator for companies to choose Dublin over London for their EU HQ. But now, what would you choose if not Dublin? Obviously Paris and B…

Everyone came on board this agreement. I'm guessing that there is enough wiggle room that low tax jurisdictions can still operate without much problem. Also, I think that defacto the 15% will become a maximum, not a minimum, similar to how posted speed limits are defacto minimums not maximums.

Re: Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement

#140

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #135

rsj_hn wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU,…

From the text of the Treaty of Lisbon: 17. Declaration concerning primacy The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law.

[deleted]