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New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

nytimes.com

211–220 of 274 posts

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, I move away from fact to my perspective. I mean, the majority of your prose comes after your description of facts, and details your pet theory on how advantageous Asian culture and parenting is an adequate explanation for the effect sizes we're seeing — that a very poor demographic in NYC would come to fulfill the plurality of NYC's gifted and talented program. And something about how Asians come from 2000 yea…

You asked for my perspective. Now you're offended that I moved from facts to perspective. I think I'm done here.

[deleted]

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#212
post #69

This just means the gifted and talented programs are now only available to the children of gifted and talented parents. Great job everyone. Get your kids out of the public schools in blue states.

Related, I'm absolutely in favor of everyone moving to a state that matches their priorities, but if someone prioritizes "highly-ranked public schools" then you might want to look closely before moving to a generic "red" state. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/public-scho... There are absolutely "red" states like Nebraska with good public schools, and "blue" states like New Mexico with poor public sch…

The gap between public and private schools is going to widen significantly - the point isn't to switch to a different public school district, but to exit the public school system given the conflict of interests they have against students.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#213

The inconvenient truth about NYC G&T program is that it is 40% Asian. Asians have dominated the G&T program, even "stealing" spots from white kids where 43% of NYC is white, but only 35% of spots taken by white kids. And Asians are dominating the NYC G&T program NOT because of hundreds of years of systemic racism, NOT because Asians wrote the admissions tests an inbueing cultural bias, and NOT by cheating or bribing…

I don't know what you're reading, but Thomas Jefferson High School is not in Fairfax. It's here in Alexandria. Fairfax would be half an hour drive for me and I live on the extreme, western edge of Alexandria. There's a whole, other city in between (Annandale). It'd be like saying something was in Brooklyn when it's actually in Queens. Virginia is a weird state. Fairfax and Alexandria are classified as "independent ci…

No, it's in Fairfax County. Its address is Alexandria, but it's not inside the City of Alexandria[1].

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Thomas+Jefferson+High+Scho...

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely BS. The activists have been trying for decades to bump up the percentage of Blacks and Latinos, and yet it's dominated by Asians. Asians are "stealing" spots from White, Blacks, and Latinos and it makes it hard to justify racism, especially when Asians are not only 40% of the G&T but also the poorest demographic in NYC.

If poverty is not a distinguishing factor, then what is left but racism? I'm confused.

Quite a lot. Social capital. Culture. About a hundred other things.

A set of concepts popularized goes under the names of cycle of poverty, culture of poverty, and generational poverty. Simply being poor seems less predictive of outcomes than multiple generation being poor. If your parents, your grandparents, and your great grandparents were poor, it's very difficult to break out.

In this case, "culture" isn't a euphemism for laziness or something crass like that; for example, there's a certain body of knowledge that goes with knowing how to move into the middle class. If no one in your family has that, it's very, very hard. That goes for everything from knowing what's required to apply for college, to knowing how much you're expected to learn when, to having the background to know how to support your kids' schooling.

Intervention programs which provide that background are effective. Even something as simple as letting parents know to read to little kids, how to make sure kids do homework, what supports are available, etc. Beyond that, having a guidance counselor who can let you know what schools you're likely to get into, what you need to apply, and what is and isn't appropriate to have in an admissions essay. These things aren't rocket science, but if neither you nor anyone around you has done them, they're very, very hard.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real thing about the asians is: There is a whole narrative that people are equal and have same capabilities. Anyone can be a sport start if trains enough or a super scientist if study enough. Then looking at statistics it is not true. The same people with cognitive dissonance claim that because social factors, etc. Usually whites get a better treatment thus because and only because of that they have better repres…

Asians are not genetically more intelligent than other races. If this were the case, Asia would be more of a powerhouse than just the "factory workers of the world". Only a small amount of innovation is coming out of Asia compared to the US. Asians in the US are more motivated to study, it's the culture. It doesn't take a lot of dedication to studying to get a major advantage over those that don't study as hard.

>Asians are not genetically more intelligent than other races.

The mean IQ is the highest but the tails of the bell curve are probably extended in the 'whites'. The upper end of the tail matters a lot when it comes to innovations. Then there is the innate behavioral component of non-conformism which is more pronounced in 'whites'.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If poverty is not a distinguishing factor, then what is left but racism? I'm confused.

Quite a lot. Social capital. Culture. About a hundred other things. A set of concepts popularized goes under the names of cycle of poverty, culture of poverty, and generational poverty. Simply being poor seems less predictive of outcomes than multiple generation being poor. If your parents, your grandparents, and your great grandparents were poor, it's very difficult to break out. In this case, "culture" isn't a euph…

Exactly. Then the current system that has vast racial imbalance, is unfair. Because those things brand a child as 'not smart'. So it needs reworking

And to say "Well, my kid is winning now so don't touch the system" is a weak argument.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#217

Public schools in NYC rush to the lowest common denominator to address cries of racial inequity. This only takes away futures for children who would have had any future because they weren't among the general population of future convicts or minimum wage earners. No one is better for policies focused on racial parity when the bar is vastly lower because of it.

Diversity is our strength.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

I wonder if anyone else ever had to have a 90 minute bus ride to school each way (3 hours per day) because there were "too many white and Asian kids" at a school a block from their house.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#218
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Activists have no problems openly discriminating against Asians because whites, blacks and Latinos think of "Americans" as whites, blacks and Latinos. Asians are considered foreigners. I don't think this is true. Asians are being punished because they're successful, and their existence bucks the narrative the blank-slate activists want to push. Sure, as a group they're being punished, but it's not because anyone se…

>I don't think this is true. Asians are being punished because they're successful, and their existence bucks the narrative the blank-slate activists want to push. No. Everyone is being punished, not just Asians. Ditching G/T programs is going about this completely backwards, and hurts all students regardless of ethnicity or melanin content. The problem is that schools in poor and minority neighborhoods suck . Let's f…

Part of the problem is, as you mention, the schools. But the other, much harder part of the problem, is the homes. If your parents aren’t engaged in parenting and you come from poverty, you are at a disadvantage that in no way can be fixed by the time you spend at your school each day. You’re treading water at best.

If you want poor kids to do better, you have to improve their home life.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528798/

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#219

The inconvenient truth about NYC G&T program is that it is 40% Asian. Asians have dominated the G&T program, even "stealing" spots from white kids where 43% of NYC is white, but only 35% of spots taken by white kids. And Asians are dominating the NYC G&T program NOT because of hundreds of years of systemic racism, NOT because Asians wrote the admissions tests an inbueing cultural bias, and NOT by cheating or bribing…

> in NYC, Asians are the poorest demographic by a large margin. Do you have evidence for this? Asians are by far the richest minority in the US so I was surprised by this statement. > Activists have no problems openly discriminating against Asians because whites, blacks and Latinos think of "Americans" as whites, blacks and Latinos. Asians are considered foreigners. So when a prestigious program is dominated by Asian…

> In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation.

Then reject diversity.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think this is true. Asians are being punished because they're successful, and their existence bucks the narrative the blank-slate activists want to push. No. Everyone is being punished, not just Asians. Ditching G/T programs is going about this completely backwards, and hurts all students regardless of ethnicity or melanin content. The problem is that schools in poor and minority neighborhoods suck . Let's f…

Part of the problem is, as you mention, the schools. But the other, much harder part of the problem, is the homes. If your parents aren’t engaged in parenting and you come from poverty, you are at a disadvantage that in no way can be fixed by the time you spend at your school each day. You’re treading water at best. If you want poor kids to do better, you have to improve their home life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/…

>Part of the problem is, as you mention, the schools. But the other, much harder part of the problem, is the homes. If your parents aren’t engaged in parenting and you come from poverty, you are at a disadvantage that in no way can be fixed by the time you spend at your school each day. You’re treading water at best.

A fair point. Although I came to the conclusion when I was in school that while the impact of your home life is important, providing a positive initial experience with school and having high expectations for scholastic performance can do a lot to improve educational outcomes. Perhaps even enough impact to counteract the lack of parental involvement/motivation for education for some.

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