Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not I.Q., it's culture. Asians have a significant cultural focus on education. But then again so do a number of Black African minorities like the Igbo, Ashanti and Yoruba. So even "race" is a complete red herring.
Culture, 100% is the reason. But I feel the real problem here is how we CANNOT talk about the negative effects of culture. Growing up black/Mexican I was made fun of by blacks and Mexicans for being smart, acting white etc. and I know I'm not the only one who experienced this. Intelligence was not valued in black culture when I was growing up and I'd argue is still not.
New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
181–190 of 274 posts
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having come out of the gifted and talented programs in question in NYC: The privileged go to private school. Our programs are dominated by first generation immigrants, mostly SE Asian. Even the white component tends to be poor immigrant families. If hard-working and intelligent poor people clawing their way upwards is a stain on equality, something has gone deeply deeply wrong with our conception of equality. It’s al…
You're making it a stain. Equality isn't some attack on your morals. I am saddened, that all the folks frightened by a world more equal immediately resort to imaginary persecution as a first reaction. "Not enough black kids" is "bigotry", right? Or do you argue that black kids are not smart? What is that argument called?
What a dumb comment.
More equal according to racial distribution and 0 other things.
Color of your skin over your character/intelligence/work ethic?
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How else are we gonna detect the asshats if they don't tribalise themselves at Poly Prep? Maybe we can just judge them by what they put out in to the world? Such as naming their personal blog something really pretentious? Or you know, like, having utterly pretentious quotes in their HN bio? > churchofthought.org > Hardy couldn't have been more wrong about the innocence of pure mathematics. But we live by his legacy…
Personal blog as opposed to what, a corporate blog? And it's not just a blog, it's a literal incorporated church. Wait, did you get your ass handed to you in high school and never got over the swirlies? Perhaps we should dive in to some public CBT on HN so we can cure you of your anachronistic pent-up teenage angst. That isn't a quote, it's something I wrote myself. Do you consider nuclear bombs or guided missiles to…
I'm not US born/raised/domiciled.
The public schools in my country (which I attended) are superb all around. Taking the bus made you a tougher person? super! I couldn't care less.
I hope you seek help.
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#184The inconvenient truth about NYC G&T program is that it is 40% Asian. Asians have dominated the G&T program, even "stealing" spots from white kids where 43% of NYC is white, but only 35% of spots taken by white kids. And Asians are dominating the NYC G&T program NOT because of hundreds of years of systemic racism, NOT because Asians wrote the admissions tests an inbueing cultural bias, and NOT by cheating or bribing…
> Activists have gutted admissions at Thomas Jefferson high school in Fairfax, VA, arguably the top public high school in the US because it had a high percentage of Asians. Lowell High school admissions in SF, a top 100 high school, underwent the exact same thing because of its high percentage of Asians. Now NYC is doing the same thing. At Harvard, the admissions department openly discriminates against Asians by sayi…
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
The real thing about the asians is: There is a whole narrative that people are equal and have same capabilities. Anyone can be a sport start if trains enough or a super scientist if study enough. Then looking at statistics it is not true. The same people with cognitive dissonance claim that because social factors, etc. Usually whites get a better treatment thus because and only because of that they have better repres…
Asians are not genetically more intelligent than other races. If this were the case, Asia would be more of a powerhouse than just the "factory workers of the world". Only a small amount of innovation is coming out of Asia compared to the US. Asians in the US are more motivated to study, it's the culture. It doesn't take a lot of dedication to studying to get a major advantage over those that don't study as hard.
further, we shouldn't assume the "most intelligent" rise to the top in terms of hegemony and leadership ex. Trump and our world governments in general.
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not I.Q., it's culture. Asians have a significant cultural focus on education. But then again so do a number of Black African minorities like the Igbo, Ashanti and Yoruba. So even "race" is a complete red herring.
Culture, 100% is the reason. But I feel the real problem here is how we CANNOT talk about the negative effects of culture. Growing up black/Mexican I was made fun of by blacks and Mexicans for being smart, acting white etc. and I know I'm not the only one who experienced this. Intelligence was not valued in black culture when I was growing up and I'd argue is still not.
I could be way off the mark here, but to me it seems like the reason for this is that if one has been blaming external factors for all of their failings, it doesn't feel good to see someone with the exact same limitations pushing ahead. It hurts the excuse that one has been making to oneself about what the reasons for not being successful are.
But as embarrassing as it might feel to have others surpass oneself, dragging others down is never a good way to handle it. Fixing that really requires a culture shift and I'm not sure that any amount of changes from the outside can have a notable impact (if anything, pushing too hard for change from the outside can make people stick harder to their ways of thinking).
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#187My brother teaches at an exam school in Boston which similarly had its requirements dropped recently, and it seems like a lot of these changes are poorly thought out and done for optics. Sure, some of the exam schools in BPS are overwhelmingly White/Asian, but the school he teaches at is mostly Black/Asian/Hispanic. While he was previously able to teach classes of bright, focused students, now they need to break up f…
Hell, I've had collab classes where half the students have an IEP and the other half are in whatever honors classes are left (not science sadly!) because our guidance doesn't care. They also actively tell kids not to challenge themselves and do whatever's easiest. Actively ruining the school because they don't give a shit about education. Hopefully the new admin changes that
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing about racism is, a system can be racist without being explicitly so. Even without Jim Crow laws and segregation, even assuming everyone is perfectly colorblind, the historical context where there were slavery and Jim Crow laws for hundreds of years means that whites wield considerably greater social capital than blacks, and that means they have a significant social advantage. The amelioration for this is eq…
Thank you for the clear and honest answer, that's what I was looking for. > Even without Jim Crow laws and segregation, even assuming everyone is perfectly colorblind, the historical context where there were slavery and Jim Crow laws for hundreds of years means that whites wield considerably greater social capital than blacks, and that means they have a significant social advantage. How do you reconcile this view wit…
There are places where blacks do better than whites. In the Bronx, New York, the standard of living went up because of an influx of Afro-Caribbean immigrants who made more than the local white population. But minorities with an earned advantage are outside consideration of equity policy, which is focused on providing unearned advantage for certain minority groups to compensate for centuries of unearned advantage held by whites.
> The way you described it, there is a perverse incentive for people at the bottom to stay at the bottom. Is that considered a problem?
No. Iron rule of 2020s American politics: Statements that may give power to "the enemy" if they were true are always to be considered false, and even taboo to talk about. To give an example, consider the following statement: There exist cisgender biological men who are very willing to put on a dress and pose as transgender women, for the purpose of creeping on women in ladies' restrooms. Without even an accusative reference to a particular purported transgender woman, this statement MUST be considered false, and even transphobic hate speech, because if true it would make policymakers hesitate to pass laws mandating that transgender people be permitted to use the facilities that match their stated gender identity.
Here's another one: The risk of serious side effects from getting the COVID vaccine is far less than the risk of serious complications from catching COVID. Watch the right squirm at that one, and even shout you down for proposing it, because to them accepting it means implicitly legitimizing Biden's vaccine mandates.
"Perverse incentives for people to stay at the bottom" sounds an awful lot like Reagan's "welfare queens" rhetoric from the 1980s, which was widely considered racist and even a "dogwhistle" (a coded statement designed to appeal to far-right racist without raising alarm among decent people), so discussing such perverse incentives is pretty much off the table in American policy discussion.
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#189It's long been a fallacy that you can sort young kids into high or low performers. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. By starting so young (kindergarten!) in NYC they were creating the division out of essentially nothing. Long ago somebody tried dividing an elementary school class into regular and advanced students. At the end of the year, the advanced students had done better. The selection was a random l…
Education research is more heavily plagued by poor methodology than even psychology - the only reason it lacks a replication crisis is because it doesn’t have the academic integrity to bother trying to replicate anything. It is the epitome of shitty studies cherry picked to support the idealology/politics of the day.
Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Activists have gutted admissions at Thomas Jefferson high school in Fairfax, VA, arguably the top public high school in the US because it had a high percentage of Asians. Lowell High school admissions in SF, a top 100 high school, underwent the exact same thing because of its high percentage of Asians. Now NYC is doing the same thing. At Harvard, the admissions department openly discriminates against Asians by sayi…
I would have been diagnosed with ADD and medicated if I hadn't been put on a faster track. Luckily the teacher correctly observed to my parents that I was just bored. I don't know what would have happened to me in a system without that track. I probably would have been a much less happy child.
This supposed ADD disappeared once I got into the real world and was given actual problems to solve. I think they did it mostly to keep their test scores up. I have no faith in the education system as a result.